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Watch my new interview with ‘Christ, Culture, and Coffee’

I had a blast being interviewed for Christ, Culture, and Coffee earlier this week. Among other topics, we talked about:

  • the current Covid outbreak at Bethel Church in Redding, CA (and how it exposes inconsistencies in their teachings about sickness),
  • New Age and occult practices entering churches, and
  • the dangers of following the “apostles” and “prophets” of Bethel Redding and other NAR churches.

Watch it on YouTube! Or listen to the podcast.

About the author

Holly Pivec is the co-author of A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement and God’s Super-Apostles: Encountering the Worldwide Prophets and Apostles Movement. She has a master’s degree in Christian apologetics from Biola University.

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13 Responses to “Watch my new interview with ‘Christ, Culture, and Coffee’”

  1. Julia Pomeroy Says:

    Holly, have you heard of Famine In The Land, based in South Africa, they have produced some very useful articles on this ‘diabolical’ organisation, one giving a glossary of the NAR buzz words and another on what you might go through after leaving NAR. They even suggest it could be similar to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I have to say that it certainly resonated with me. My beloved and I escaped six years ago and we keep plugging your book “A New Apostolic Reformation?” whenever we can. However, do you not think it is time to update it? It is now five years since you published it.

  2. Holly Says:

    Julia, yes, I have heard of them. Thanks for mentioning those articles; I will take a look. I’m currently writing another book and plan to share more details soon. Thanks for your encouraging words!

  3. Julia Pomeroy Says:

    I am so looking forward to that as it is now 5 years since your major work with Doug Geivett which was a god-send as far as my beloved and I are concerned. I am also so honoured that you would even consider responding to me, thank you so much. Any time you fancy coming to Cyprus just let me know!
    Oh by the way I was pleasantly surprised by the two young men I really expected something all upbeat and loud and noisy and you being given very little opportunity to speak, as happens with so many people who have a site like the one these young men have. I have tried to listen to people I support on such sites but their ‘interviewer’ so loves his/her voice I switch off.

  4. Holly Says:

    Thanks, again, for your encouraging words and your very generous invitation, Julia!

  5. stephen Says:


    Scripture states that many false prophets have gone out into the world. It also states that And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

    So, since GOD has set apostles prophets teachers miracles etc IN the ecclesia — then they ARE there… It does not mean everybody with a business card proclaiming to be an apostle etc. does not make it so. We need TRUE —- Plenty of false.

    Jesus one time asked WHO touched me. The disciples said basically, what do you mean — look at the crowd around you. Jesus said, I discerned that VIRTUE left me.

    I would take from that statement — that the ecclesia — without Virtue, Covid takes down churches. Nobody came to my house to be prayed for — have to admit, not enough Virtue to lay hands on people and see them healed.

    VIRTUE is something within us.

    And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge

    Sounds like a long term commitment to Christ — where like a Tree we grow over TIME. Most of us simply have a need of Time and Commitment greater than we might currently have. The commitment 🙂


  6. Mark Says:

    Hi Stephen, I think I understand how you feel. I believe Paul is writing to the Corinthians about the body of Christ and addressing the current chaos in the church at that time. I use to think everything in the bible was spoken to me directly and I became totally frustrated and confused. Now that I understand that God speaks in a continuum of time to different people groups, Jews and Gentiles, and not everything in the Word of God is actually written to me, I rightly divide scripture and am free from confusion now. You see Paul was addressing the Body of Christ made of Jews and Gentiles at that particular time. He states that these gifts to the body are temporary until the perfect comes. He even talks about being a child in his understanding and then becoming a man. The early church was a mix of Jews and Gentiles in chaos about the Law and Grace and Paul even had a run-in with Peter and James about it. The early church was given supernatural gifts until the perfect came. 1Co 13:10. But Paul explains they will cease when the perfect comes. Who or what is the perfect you might ask? It is Paul’s 13 Epistles that are the perfect word of God to edify and instruct the Body of Christ. The beginning of the Body of Christ was a period of tumult and confusion for many believers because Paul had not finished all his epistles to the Body. Once they were canonized and made available to believers, there was no need to lead the child by the hand because the child was growing into adulthood and this proves God’s word is progressive and time sensitive. God still does amazing supernatural things today, but does not baby feed the body or change it’s diapers. As the BOC has matured over time, we have been weened off the breast milk of the gifts and now walk by faith and not by sight. Paul was given the Mystery of the Revelation hidden from before the foundation of the world. That mystery is only for the church today and is not spoken of outside of Paul’s epistles. Romans through Philemon are Jesus words written to us in the BOC today and for instruction. The 4 Gospels, James, John and Peter’s epistles thru Revelation are written to the Jews. Only Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. All the bible is for us but not to us. Only Paul’s epistles are for the BOC today. mark

  7. Julia Pomeroy Says:

    Those who would be viewed as apostles are those whom we call missionaries. The only true Apostles were those whom we read about in the Bible those who had actually walked with Jesus when He was on this earth, plus it was recognised that Paul had definitely had an encounter with Jesus and he referred to himself as one unnaturally born. There has never been an Apostle since then nor has there ever been a Prophet – Jesus is our Prophet and He speaks to us through His Word – at least He does me. We have the Bible now we do not need a prophet because “ALL Scripture is God-breathed, etc, etc.”
    With regard to NAR (New Apostolic Reformation?} which is what you are referring to indirectly, then I recommend you become sucked in for a couple of decades or more, work with them, go on mission with them and end up totally deceived and confused by them.
    My beloved and I have learned what it is to be thoroughly grateful to the Holy Spirit for rescuing us. And, if you are interested, I would recommend Famine In The Land who have written a glossary of NAR buzz words which I recognised every one of them and also a wonderful blog written to help people who have escaped this heretical organisation which I found mind-blowing as it could have been me writing it the descriptions given of the stages you have to go through. In fact the writer likened coming out of NAR to experiencing Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and he is so right.
    Then there is Holly’s and Douglas Geivett book “A New Apostolic Reformation?” which rang an incredible number of bells.

  8. bill (cycleguy) Says:

    Hi Holly! My apologies if I am missing something here. I clicked on the link and all if got was a podcast/YouTube video from awhile back. In fact, I had started listening to it then ran out of time. Do I have the wrong link? It appeared to me that it was more of an introduction to the NAR (which I do agree is a cult and preaches heresy). What about the covid outbreak at Bethel? Did I not listen far enough into the video? Help me out please.

  9. Holly Says:

    Hi Bill. Here’s the link again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WKqg4-Z3ZY&t=332s We touched on the outbreak starting at about 35 minutes.

  10. Jon Says:

    If the NAR would just come out and declare itself a separate denomination with Apostle and Prophet offices and five-fold ministry governance, the public could make a legitimate choice on the type of church they attend. Unfortunately, the marketing strategy of the NAR is to build on the work of others and replace the doctrine with their own brand, but still under the banner of Pentecostalism. The AOG in the United States wrote a postion paper, which honestly described their position on Apostle and Prophet offices in the church. Very few people read position papers. However, anyone can attend a school of supernatural ministry, get indoctrinated, popularise and peer pressure. Then eventually, get into leadership and legitimise the invasion. Just as Paul described the false apostles in his day. They came in the backdoor when things were already established and changed the Gospel adding works. And in this case they are adding “greater works”. Cynically, I don’t believe the NAR Apostles have the fortitude or conviction to stand on a set of distictive doctrines or be tested as a stand alone denomination, because they are making doctrine up as they go along chasing the dream of equality with Christ.

  11. Julia Pomeroy Says:

    You can see the subtle strategy of the enemy can’t you? My beloved and I were sucked into NAR with no awareness and we were in it for decades before the Holy Spirit was finally able to get through to us. You would have thought the strange looks we used to receive because we always had our Bibles with us would have been a clue, even the ‘preachers’ (I will not give them any other name) would not necessarily have a Bible with them, not even a token one. We worked with some really well-known names.
    Your summation at the end is spot on.
    If you have not read Holly’s book which she wrote along with Douglas Geivett – “A New Apostolic Reformation?” I would strongly encourage you to get it. We bought it after we had left and it explained so much which had bothered us, spiritually, but which we could not put into words. It truly is an excellent book with not a hint of sensationalism, Holly and Douglas have just taken the Words of God from the Bible and contrasted them with words from the books of the two founders of NAR – C. Peter Wagner and Bill Hamon. The contrast is stark!

  12. stephen Says:

    Mark, appreciate your thoughts. That was what I used to go with 🙂 — now it does not bother me if I do [not] understand everything perfectly. Nor does it bother me [as much] to acknowledge that I def. fall short. All of the scriptures are profitable. I see [GOD] setting apostles prophets etc. in the [ecclesia] as that is what I read. The TRUE ones, of course, ARE servants :). Washing the feet of others. Not lording it over others. Rather, I am among you as One Who Serves. Meek and Lowly of heart. And certainly, shying away from making merchandise of the Word of God. I would imagine, you may also do away with gifts of healing, as well as apostles etc. Why then is Laying on of hands a principle of the Doctrine of Christ? Hebrews 6:1-3. I just have stopped making excuses for myself to myself – very liberating. And as a friend reminded me. I could be wrong. Well, I could be wrong. You DO raise some interesting points. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. As Paul states: scripture is Profitable for a lot of good. All of it. Personally, I accept that All scripture is needed to interpret one scripture. Does not mean I have [grown] into that walk. It is a goal though. Did Paul leave this example for “gentiles” who would believe and follow his example?

    And it happened that the father of Publius was lying in bed afflicted with recurrent fever and dysentery; and Paul went in to see him and after he had prayed, he laid his hands on him and healed him.

    As Paul stated: Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

    I don’t give myself a walk in relation to not exhibiting a dimension of Messiah [ie healing physically] — neither do I give the ecclesia at large a walk. Neither do I elevate it up — as we read in the gospels:
    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Bottom line: relationship. For this is the Work of God, that we believe in him [Yeshua/JESUS] whom the Lord God has sent. I hope to always be open to correction — am sure I have a good bit of road to travel there. Is nice to be able to talk out loud though!

    I DO Read in 1 cor 14 which comes AFTER 1 cor 13:

    Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.

    After the chapter about when that which is perfect is come — a passage about 2 or 3 prophets speaking ??


  13. Mark Says:

    Hi Stephen, thanks for replying to me. I do understand where you are coming from because I came out of an NAR church and many of my dear friends are still there. The reason i left was mostly due to understanding Rightly Dividing. 2Tim2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. As I mentioned before, All Scripture is inspired and truthful, but it is not all written to us. Us being the Body of Christ. Even Jesus said I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So the scripture in the 4 Gospels were written to the Jews not the Gentiles. The BOC did not exist until Paul who was the 13th Apostle given the Mystery of the revelation that was hidden since the world began. No Apostles or Prophets knew about the mystery that was revealed to Paul. That Jesus’s death burial and resurrection on the cross atoned for all sins and the adoption of the sons of God into the Body of Christ. Holy and without blame! this was unheard of for Jews under the law. The book of James and Hebrews were written to the Jews under the law. James is written to the 12 tribes of Israel under the law…not the BOC under grace. Once the distinction can be seen between the two programs Israel under the law and the BOC under grace, then it is clear that Paul’s writings were explaining the new revelation of grace which was rejected by Peter and James. The prophetic program stopped once the BOC was formed and Paul’s epistles became the new doctrine for the church age. Israel’s program under the law was postponed until the end of Daniel’s 70th week. There is not one thing anyone can add to the sacrifice of Jesus, but the NAR and many churches teaching doctrine out of the 4 Gospel’s are putting believers back under the law. We only need to believe in the death burial and resurrection of our Lord to get forgivness of all our sins. No gifts of healing, or water baptisms, or confession, or laying on of hands, or tithing or repentance can add to what Jesus did on the cross. It is thru faith and not of works less any man should boast. Hebrews says 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,…. But Paul says Eph1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. Believers in the BOC are not under the law like the Jews were in the 4 Gospels, James to Revelations. The NAR leaders teach out of every part of the bible except Paul’s epistles because Paul’s revelation does not put us under the law. It’s for liberty Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. The Yoke of Bondage is the Law of sin and death and we are free from that law in the BOC. Sorry for being so long winded. I hope that let’s you know where I’m coming from. NAR churches are putting believers under the law claiming to be Prophets and Apostles that were for Israel’s program not the church.

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