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My interview about NAR with ex-New Ager Doreen Virtue

Yesterday, I was interviewed about the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) by two ex-New Agers, Melissa Dougherty and Doreen Virtue. Doreen Virtue was a well-known New Age author before converting to Christianity two years ago. Now she has a ministry warning people about the dangers of New Age beliefs. She has a large following, including many New Agers and former New Agers.

On her webcast, yesterday, we discussed NAR and how specific NAR practices, such as exercises designed to “activate” the miraculous gift of prophecy, have more in common with New Age practices than the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit found in Scripture. We also discussed the major role Bethel Church in Redding, California, has played in promoting these New Age-type activation exercises. And we talked about the need for spiritual discernment, including the importance of having a full understanding of the Bible, not just a superficial understanding, and how to get that understanding. The webcast has already received over 3,000 views in less than 24 hours. Check out the webcast on YouTube.


Holly Pivec is the co-author of A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement and God’s Super-Apostles: Encountering the Worldwide Prophets and Apostles Movement. She has a master’s degree in Christian apologetics from Biola University.

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23 Responses to “My interview about NAR with ex-New Ager Doreen Virtue”

  1. R. R. Says:

    Fantastic. Thank you .

  2. Karen Ortwein Says:

    These NAR teachings, to my personal knowledge, have been going on since the early 1970s. My husband and I were starting out in ministry at that time and seeing error cropping up in all sorts of forms.It has seemed to me that it was about power and money–power to get your money! I have friends whose marriages fell apart over the giving money to get “stuff”, one friend committed suicide because he didn’t think he could get all his evil spirits out (another errant teaching that was within the early NAR). We attended a meeting in which one speaker stood up calling folks to the front and she would teach them to speak in tongues!! She told them to say “ba ba” as fast as they could and soon they’d be talking in tongues. Yes it actually happened and we walked out. I see so much new age in the church there’s no place to go anymore. Keep up the good work. I may not 100% agree with you, but you are really trying to fight delusion and error.

  3. Kevin Says:

    Holly, I am strongly opposed to the teachings of the NAR, the violent eschatology of Mike Bickle, et al. So I thank you for your excellent ministry!

    However, regarding judging prophecies, not all prophecies are predictive. Prophecy (speaking from God) is to be for “strengthening, encouragement, and comfort” (1 Cor. 14:3).

    As to “prophets” under the New Covenant, and the gift of prophecy, it is not an all-or-nothing (100% accuracy or else!) proposition. I believe there is indeed room for error and growth. As we read in 1 Corinthians:

    “And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge [discern, decide].” 1 Cor. 14:29.

    In the same vein, the (all too uncommon) gift of discerning of spirits listed in 1 Cor. 12:10, is not just to quickly protect the local brethren from visiting wolves, but also from the carnality of immature believers growing in spiritual gifts. When a prophetic utterance is offered, the question should be, “Is this word from God, the flesh, or the devil? Or some combination?”

    Let me add that Christian leaders should not exercise authority outside their local bodies. But the temptation to do so feeds the ecumenical movement of ‘unity at the expense of truth.’ (Of course, the post-millennial, dominionist, Antichrist agenda of the Latter Rain movement REQUIRES this extra-local control.)

  4. Diane Woerner Says:

    Kevin, those are such good points. Counterfeits necessarily emulate something real, and the closer they come the more powerful they are.

    It’s interesting that our culture is so anti-authority and anti-patriarchy, and yet we are designed to function best under leadership that cares for and protects us. This appears to have created a vacuum which draws people to anyone who represents themselves as God’s appointed leader. Acts 20:30 is very much alive in our day.

  5. Terry Says:

    Holly, what groups of contemporary Christian music do you think are good ones? I’d like to avoid the Hollsong/ Bethel music, thank you

  6. Holly Says:

    Terry, thanks for your great question. Music isn’t my strong suit. But I can tell you that we, as Christians, need to weigh all song lyrics according to the teachings of Scripture. There is no shortcut to this. A life of reading Scripture broadly (both the Old and New Testament), often, and deeply (in context and with the help of a good study Bible) can help us grow in this.

  7. Terry Says:

    Have you heard of Carolyn Hamlett and her story of Why she left Bride Ministries? Seems like the New Age and Luciferian doctrines are entering into Christian churches. (See Emerging church movement) People need to be aware of this in order for it not to enter their churches. But it seems to be entering everywhere such as schools , media, bookstores etc
    Your interview was very good thank you for your work!

  8. Marilyn GS Says:

    Not a comment. I just haven’t been receiving your new posts so resubmitting my email. I, and a number of my friends, follow you, Holly. ☺

  9. Holly Says:


    I added you back to the subscription list. I’m not sure why you haven’t received my new posts. Thanks for your encouraging words.

  10. Drew Says:

    Holly you HAVE GOT to look into Che Ahn’s brand new book “Modern Day Apostles”!! He admits it an office and boldly uses the title New Apostolic Reformation! Bill Johnson wrote the foreword and Ahn gives a history of the movement and many key leaders and even praises the Latter Rain! Michael Brown simply cannot continue his false narrative about the”so called NAR”. I think you should write a post about it soon. Thanks for all you do!

  11. Holly Says:

    Thanks for the tip, Drew. I’ll definitely check it out.

  12. Angela Says:

    Hi drew gosh that sounds incredibly helpful for research from the horse’s mouth! I have read Che Ahn talk about the beginnings of the revival alliance etc, so will have to make a note of that book! Indeed the NAR rumbles on every day, have noticed some of their conferences this year seem aimed at young people, the idea of a “new Jesus movement”, passing the baton to the “next generation of world changers” etc etc …there’s been the Che Ahn church planting conference where they plan to build 10,000 churches across the US, the ICAL conference later this year where they join forces with Alan Hirsch (who is more on the purpose driven/church plant/”missional” side of things and puts APEST as a trademark (!!) …then there’s The Send conference …it truly does rumble on and on …

    Blessings, Angela

  13. Angela Says:

    Hello again Holly,

    A massive massive encouragement for all NAR watchers …a young ex NAR pastor called Ty Mustafa turned up at the send and for two hours preached and warned those going in to be bereans, and about false prophets ….this young man seems to have led an NAR church with Dutch sheets as speaker, then come out of NAR 2015-2017 looking at his Facebook page ….massively encouraging!!! We pray for more and I really hope his preaching was a huge red flag for some going in!!

    God bless, Angela

  14. Jim Moffatt Says:

    Holly, I have not been receiving your posts as well lately. Please put me back on your distribution as I truly enjoy your blog and look forward to it.

  15. Holly Says:

    Hi Jim. You should be still on the distribution list. I haven’t posted in a while, though plan to release new posts soon. I’ve been busy with some writing projects that have left me with little time for other writing. Thanks for your encouraging words.

  16. Hi Holly Says:

    Hi Holly just wanted to touch base with you. Haven’t written for a while. Just wanted to let you know that Katherine Rouanalas Glory Gathering now has a branch office in Ipswich, to the west of Brisbane and more affiliated churches here in Oz. Her infamous School of the Spirit is in full flight and her annual Australian Prophetic Council gathering is still spewing forth false prophecies by the dozen. According to the ACNC (government registration body for charities) the GG earned just under a million dollars for 2017 with that report posted on their website in February of 2018. But it’s not about the money… Austin Hellier Downunder

  17. Angela Says:

    Hi again, encouragement for all on here, a young lady has been rescued out of BSSM….


    Hope this encourages everyone as much as it did me, Angela

  18. Aaron Lewis Says:


    I’ll have to check that book out. I’m doing research on the NAR for blog posts, and I may have to redo my posts.

  19. Charity Says:

    Hi, you mentioned a having a study Bible. I have a life application study Bible is that a good one? Also do you have any recommendations for a good study Bible?

  20. Holly Says:

    Hi Charity, I think the Life Application Study Bible is a good place to start. I think the notes in the ESV Study Bible are very helpful for more in depth study.

  21. Mary K Says:

    This was so helpful. This weekend, I dipped my toe back into this movement after decades away from it. Quotes from a William Wood sermon this weekend. “I don’t have a belief system that allows sickness. I have not been sick in 14 years.” “There is a distinction between truth and facts. Truth brings its own reality.” Sigh.

  22. ann, south jersey friscia Says:

    this is for doreen virtue. i had friends in ny who used to go to get prophesy in brooklyn from doreen. now i am a christian who was afraid to get non christian prophesy. my question is. what is the difference between using a california psychic or a metaphysician who uses thought and a christian’s prophesy? there is only one mind the mind of christ so how does one know where the line of demarcation is as to using psychic or prophet? i myself prophesy and i do not want to do it erroneousy. what happened to doreen’s seer annointing after transformation? i hope you understand the question. is the psychic always in disobedience? ann

  23. Holly Says:

    Hi Ann. You contacted the website of Holly Pivec, not Doreen Virtue. You will want to contact her to ask your questions. Here is a link to her site: https://doreenvirtue.com/

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