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Will NAR converge with evangelical churches?

Don Veinot and Ron Henzel, of Midwest Christian Outreach, invited me to join them on their “Unknown Webcast” to discuss “Will NAR converge with evangelical churches?” Watch the interview here on Youtube.

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Holly Pivec is the co-author of A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement and God’s Super-Apostles: Encountering the Worldwide Prophets and Apostles Movement. She has a master’s degree in Christian apologetics from Biola University.

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62 Responses to “Will NAR converge with evangelical churches?”

  1. Angela Says:

    Again let me mention where God graciously brought me out of a year ago, I believed in elite manifest sons of God end time army who were going to have immortal bodies and do miracles to help bring in the end time harvest!! So, its very easy to be deceived, so important to intricately research everything and Holly’s website here was one of the websites I came across during research, others like crosswise, Christian research network, warren b smith …praise God otherwise we would not see the history and root of how all this has come in …bill hamon is an absolute key figure, he was involved in original nolr over the decades of morphing into the NAR/PDL/ecumenical false unity mish mash of world changers it is today! The raptureless book I mentioned is deeply worrying as it paints a rock a bye baby picture even concerning false teaching …the Lord alone knows who are wheat and tares even among these leaders, who are born again and who aren’t, but we truly live in a time of follow-the-leader instead of looking into the background and history of the leader to see what they are teaching…For example, anyone who denied the trinity like William branham, instead a big glowing article in a magazine of his “healing revival” …

  2. Angela Says:

    Please read this!!! So important to see where things have crept in …my absolute last comment on this thread bow, may God continue to bless and lead holly and others in the research, and may many more, particularly church leaders, see what’s going on and warn the sheep instead of embracing the glitter! https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=28458

  3. Lance Wonders Says:

    Holly, you have to stop this!!! Slander is from the evil one, not from the Holy Spirit! Please stop giving “air time” to people whose personal “bad experience” is used to falsely paint huge chunks of the Body of Christ with the brush of alleged “Heresy”, when most who are being accused are merely ardent pursuers of Jesus Himself and the spread of His saving truth and liberating salvation.

  4. Tyrone Flanagan Says:

    Yes Lance, I agree that the heresy hunters tend to find an out of balance church or ministry and then go on to brand the whole place as aberrant or a heresy. There are however, serious problems with the Bethel church and its school of supernatural ministry. They have led their students in the practice of “grave sucking” which means literally going to grave sites of dead saints and attempting to suck the anointing from the bones of these dead saints! This is out and out occultism and I have never heard that the Bethel church has stopped this practice. Any church or ministry that would even sanction such a practice is badly deceived. Lance, you should try to use your influence to insist that Bethel church in Redding stop this occultic practice.

  5. Lance Wonders Says:

    Grave sucking is both a sick and wrongful practice — but so far as I can tell, though it was done a couple of times by over-zealous students at their school, loosely based on the bones of the prophet in the OT king accounts having brought a dead person back to life when brought into contact with those bones, this is NOT being deliberately “promoted” by Bethel — any more than the tarot cards nonsense was — but because there is so much hate and fear and prejudice against Bill Johnson right now, any dumb thing done by anyone there gets broadcast as if it were “regular practice” not just among Bethelites, but — supposedly –throughout the one billion NAR type Pentecostals growing in numbers around the world. But to my way of weighing things, that is like lambasting ALL evangelical Christians as being stupid “date-setters” because Edgar Whisenant in 1988 predicted the rapture was going to happen that fall…or more recently, John Hagee IMPLIED, in his Blood Moons movie, that the rapture was likely coming (a year or two back)– and, of course, once again, it didn’t. But dumb things done or claimed by members of a group do NOT “prove” that the entire group is wrong or stupid…or evil or heretical. Reject the dumb things and stupid teachings, yes: but don’t slander an entire movement by painting everyone in that movement as supposedly believing the same things. I promise you: they (we!) do not.

  6. Tyrone Flanagan Says:

    Lance, the reason that Bethel is such an easy target for heresy hunters is that its leadership doesn’t lead and refuses to go on the record as correcting some of the errant practices and beliefs that keep surfacing out of Bethel, Redding. I’ve visited the church and loved the way that they do their healing ministry on Saturdays. The pre prayer “soaking” in an environment of music dance and art was awesome. I realize that Bethel is a place were folks are trying to push the envelope of spiritual experience and devotion. People do get healed here. But I’m sorry, I don’t receive the testimonies of folks being caught up in “glornadoes” or Spirit vortexes of power. I’ve seen worship leaders at Bethel rotating wildly on stage when supposedly caught up in “glornadoes”. I remember the Christianity Today interview of a leader at Bethel who kept having what were described as neverous “tics” or jerking when giving a tour of the facility.
    These habitual neurological tics are supposed to be signs of the Spirit resting on someone in Bethel circles. What are evangelical readers supposed to think of this? Much of Bethel’s bad press is self inflicted. Bill Johnson needs to lead and correct this stuff on the record.
    Tyrone Flanagan

  7. Lance Wonders Says:

    Good critique, Tyrone — I mostly agree with you. But spinning in circles or shaking or falling down in a faint can all be legitimate (though somewhat idiosyncratic) responses to God’s “felt” presence, just as certain types of speaking in tongues are. They are not to be “copied” or “sought after”, but neither should they be rejected as false or as psychosomatic (or, worse yet, as allegedly always “being from the devil”). People can “yield” to these experiences or not — for some folk, it becomes a kind of conditioned response, like weeping when singing certain hymns or spiritual praise songs. Jonathan Edwards — hardly a charismatic or Pentecostal — documented such occurrences in his journals on revival. But the key is whether Jesus Himself is truly being honored, the Word is rightly being taught — AND OBEYED! — and the love and morality of the HOLY Spirit are being manifested. “Love covers a multitude of sins”…and a few erroneous practices as well?

  8. Tyrone Flanagan Says:

    Lance, thanks for the reply. My problem with Bethel is that such experiences are encouraged and even seen as normative in the Christian life. They aren’t…they are revival experiences that prove nothing about the maturity of the folks involved. I get really concerned when I wonder about how a seeking non believer will react to seeing exotic manifestations like these. They might just head for the exit. Jesus said that if He was lifted up, He would draw all men unto Him. He didn’t say anything about the Holy Spirit or spiritual manifestations being lifted up to draw all men unto Him. Revivals are supposed to draw many new believers into the family of God. That happens when the Word of God is preached with Jesus being the center. In Revelation it says that, “the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus”. Too often in charismatic outpourings,it’s the same folks being recycled over and over by having new experiences. There are not a lot of new spiritual babies being born. Something is very wrong about all that. The purpose of signs and wonders is to confirm the word of the gospel, not the other way around. Jesus and His word needs to be exalted above all else, including even the Holy Spirit. After all, the H.S. is the Spirit of Christ and His primary ministry is to reveal and exalt Christ. Signs and wonders certainly have their place, and I rejoice in those that are true. Let’s get the order of God’s grace ministered to us right; From the Father, through Jesus Christ and in the fellowship and power of the Holy Spirit.
    Sincerely, Tyrone Flanagan

  9. Angela Says:

    I am not a heresy hunter nor am I a slanderer, I’m someone who the lord has rescued on numerous occasions, and like anyone born again, can testify to his salvation miracle as he has changed me from a rebellious world loving person who was dead in trepasses and sins (Titus 3:3-7)

    Am also an observer of things like the below link-this is what is happening right before our eyes, people trying to mix darkness and light when the Word says to expose the unfruitful works of darkness – this is what happens when people say “let’s not put God in a box” or the Bill Johnson quote of “going off the map, beyond what we know” ..and this is where it leads to!! I truly believe 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is very very soon. No wonder Jesus said when the son of man comes will he find faith on the earth? May more see what is going on, the end times deception leading to one world religion just as prophesied in the Word,anyone going to churches that advocates the ideas of the below organization or terminology should turn around and walk straight back out of the door! My mum recently left her church after 16 years due to their “little christs” teaching, she realised they were being encouraged to chase experiences and not study the word for themselves, and the church, not Jesus, was being glorified …

    no wonder in revelation 19 Jesus is revealed as the Word of God! The Holy Spirit never ever contradicts the Word! No wonder jesus said, thy word is truth! So many things being done in Jesus’ name that don’t line up with the Word …like below, for example …

    http://www.christiansawakening.org

  10. tyrone flanagan Says:

    Dear Angela, I personally think that spiritual discernment in
    the Body of Christ is at an all time low, at least in my experience of over 40 years. Paul predicted that in the future men follow after teachers having itchy ears and not endure sound doctrine. In other words, men who entertain and tell you what you want to hear in a way that departs from the scriptures. I’m tired of being called “religious” when I challenge and object to a bizarre experience driven form of Christianity that literally goes over the edge. Folks should research why even John Wimber broke with the Toronto revival and the new Prophetic movement because of its divisiveness, errors and a refusal to be corrected by other church leaders. I’ve been to Bethel church in Redding and I recognize the Lord is working among those people. Sadly there is also serious error that coexists in that church that threatens to engulf the place.

  11. Angela Says:

    Absolutely anything that deviates from the word of truth, or encourages departure from the word of truth as inspired by the Holy Spirit, is part of the end times deception warned in numerous places, both by Jesus in the olivet discourse, and by Paul in his letters…Paul says to mark and avoid, so anything that promotes man as God, or Jesus as “emptied of deity”as just a model for us to follow, or chasing experiences that originated in the occult such as ” speaking into being” or encouraging gnosis hidden activity and man as “co-creator”, anything that encourages false unity such as with catholicism, is all to be marked and avoided. Having looked at the UN agenda 2030, and the Antichrist policies there of man trying to make ” a better world” which denies the Gospel truth of sin and Jesus as saviour (and to me dominionism and “world changers” is all very much from that same root of glorifying man)…the gospel needs to be preached and I continue to try and share the Gospel even with my own kids where possible especially because they are being told lies at school…I believe the time is short! And have been looking at how in Nero’s time the true Christians were accused of “hatred of mankind”, I genuinely reckon in the time coming that anyone who insists the Gospel truth in the inspired word of God, is going to be accused of hatred, of not joining with the ” better world ” dominionism, whether in rick warrens peace plan, Peter Wagners quote about the world getting “better and better” or the planned World government summit in Feb 2019 (notice they said government singular!) So, yes, the bible is not a roadmap, its the 100% God inspired word of truth and anything that doesn’t line up with it is to be marked and avoided no matter how authentic it may appear. I myself would have nothing to do with bethel since bill Johnson in more than one of his books said that Jesus did his miracles as a man, not as God. To me, everything else coming out of that is then to be marked and avoided, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. So as “globalization” continues may we stand fast in the unchanging word, the truth that endures to all generations!

  12. Angela Says:

    Last comment on here now, this is Holly’s website and it is good to share observations, compare notes and have fellowship on here in these very late times, may the lord continue to sustain, uphold and strengthen us as we continue to move towards the times of revelation 13, 17 and 18, he is the truth and promises to bring to light the hidden things of darkness and indeed will destroy the Antichrist with the brightness of his coming as promised, may the lord continue to strengthen those like holly on websites like these and I continue to pray for young pastors and church leaders to be brought out of any false teaching and to be warning the sheep in love. Maranatha!

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