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Will NAR converge with evangelical churches?

Don Veinot and Ron Henzel, of Midwest Christian Outreach, invited me to join them on their “Unknown Webcast” to discuss “Will NAR converge with evangelical churches?” Watch the interview here on Youtube.

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Holly Pivec is the co-author of A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement and God’s Super-Apostles: Encountering the Worldwide Prophets and Apostles Movement. She has a master’s degree in Christian apologetics from Biola University.

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43 Responses to “Will NAR converge with evangelical churches?”

  1. Lance Wonders Says:

    According to I Cor. 3, all teachers in the Body belong to the entire Body. In Eph. 4:11ff., we see further that teachers are a part of the “five-fold ministry” given, again, to the ENTIRE Body for her upbuilding, maturing, equipping, and unity under the Headship of Jesus Christ Himself. There is no delineation in either of these passages whereby we can justify setting up “camps” that then either “converge” or “dominate” each other, or allow us to build some sort of wall-of-protection in order to remain separate/”integrous” apart from each other.

    I personally saw Billy Graham as a global “apostle” within Evangelical Christianity. So do most leaders I know within the so-called “New Apostolic Reformation”. How, then, is that to be understood? If he were still among us today, would his own “vote” decide whether he was or was not an “apostle”? He once publicly said that he was not really an “evangelist”, he was, rather, an “exhorter”!!!

    My point is simply that, because there is only ONE Body, we can argue about labels, but we have no right or authority to “divide” the Body of Christ in reality. There can therefore be no “convergence” where there are no separate “camps”, really, to begin with. Men dare not “put asunder what God Himself has joined together.” As per Eph. 5, this applies not just to marriage but also to the relationship between Christ and His ONE Church.

  2. Tyrone Flanagan Says:

    Dear Lance, I don’t no how you could consider Billy Graham as a
    global Apostle because he did not plant churches or act in any sort of a governing role in the body of Christ. He also would be the first to tell you that he had never seen the resurrected Lord.
    None of the so called apostles within the NAR fit N.T. requirements for an apostle either. Most of these men are self appointed. Doctrinal camps within Christianity are a reality and
    recognizing this as such is necessary to deal with the problem.
    Paul did the same thing in 1Corinthians when he spoke of various
    factions within the Corinthian church; ” I of Cephas and I of Christ” and so forth. In fact, Paul stated that there must be
    factions in the church to show who is approved of God. Please read the book. I don’t mean to be rude, but is Wonders actually
    your real last name?

  3. Paula Southworth Says:

    Once again, you’re spot on. Mr.Brown is trying to paint anyone (you, Amy Spreeman, Ps. Rosebrough) as being unhinged.Character attacks right out of the gate only strengthen and prove your assertions. The NAR is IN Baptist churches. And your tactful when you speak of Mr. Brown. There has been nothing but kindness and giving the benefit of the doubt, so to speak, by you. Me thinks he protests to much. Keep up the awesome work.

  4. nan Says:

    The NAR cancer has spread far and wide. I recently talked with a man who was cleaning my carpet who was trying to get me to join his group. He meets in a house church only because he says everyone else is apostate (I agree to a point, 2 Thess. 2:3). So in these secret house churches the apostles and prophets visit and give the ‘word’ and if you don’t come to their meetings you are not a Christian. Even women are apostles and prophets and they can preach even if it is forbidden by scripture. I gave him the gospel and he told me I was deceived. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. I gave him a tract and according to his doctrine they are all saved by their works, not the gospel. I absolutely will separate from such cultic people who will not listen.

  5. Diane Woerner Says:

    Years ago I personally watched Bill Hamon accurately prophesy over many people in the church we attended. It was really quite impressive, although in retrospect, I think it was more a matter of “reading” their current situations and issues than telling their futures (which of course we couldn’t confirm on the spot).

    The problem isn’t that everything these prophets say doesn’t have truth in it. The problem is that they’re using their clairvoyant abilities to validate their assumptions about God’s ways and plans in history, and more to the point, to solidify the trust and loyalty of their followers. The goal of an authentic biblical leader is not to create greater dependency on himself, but to raise people up to be closer to and more dependent on God.

  6. roger olson Says:

    Nan. i am sorry. but a Women can preach. i don,t think though that they should be Pastor of a Church. big difference. God Bless

  7. Samuel Lamonde Says:

    It’s a truly sad time for the Church, especially for USA, I simply can’t believe the big mess it is… The two things that frustrate me the most about this whole thing. First, it’s that, they make the Holy Spirit look like a fool and doing that they keep people from knowing the only one that can break a stoneheart and convince him of sin, by the mean time, they also fool believers making them think they walk by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone in (by) the power of the Holy Spirit, which is truly not the case. Second they put a shame on the whole evangelical world, a lots of people nowdays when they think of evangelical they think Benny Hinn.. Sad to say but the USA is the protestant “nation”, how in God name christian television pass from dr. Walter Martin to Kenneth Copeland?

  8. nan Says:

    Roger Olson, what Bible are you reading? “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” 1 Timothy 2:12. William MacDonald says, “It is God who decrees that women should not have a public teaching ministry in the church. The only exceptions to this are that they are permitted to teach children (2 Tim. 3:15) and young women (Titus 2:4). Neither is a woman to have authority over a man. That means that she must not have dominion over a man, but is to be in silence or quietness. Perhaps we should add that the latter part of this verse is by no means limited to the local assembly. It is a fundamental principle in God’s dealings with mankind that man has been given the headship and the woman is in the place of subjection.” Believer’s Bible Commentary. J. Vernon McGee says, “These verses have to do with the learning and teaching of doctrine. Keep in mind that the women led in the mystery religions of Paul’s day, and they were there were sex orgies. Paul is cautioning women not to speak publically with the idea of making an appeal on the basis of sex. Paul strictly forbade women to speak in tongues in 1 Cor. 14:34.” Example: the heretic Ellen G. White who taught all kinds of crazy stuff that she got from angels (demons)

  9. Samuel Lamonde Says:

    I think that everything these “prophets” are doing is problematic…, but that’s a very good point Diane Woerner.

  10. roger olson Says:

    Nan. did you read about women in the O.T. that God used as leaders? Did you read in the N.T. about women that prophecy. and you are twisting scripture about women being quite in church. did you even think about what was going on at the time in the Corinthian Church? did you read abou problems going on in the Corinthian church was divisions and the abuse of Spiritual gifts?

  11. nannette Says:

    Roger Olson, I read it all. There were but only 5 Prophetesses mentioned in the Old testament: Exodus 15:20, Judges 4:4, 2 Kings 22:14, 2 Ch. 34:22, Neh. 6:14. ONLY 2 women prophetess’s mentioned in the New Testament, only Two.ONE WHO GOD CALLED A PROPHETESS LUKE 2:26, AND JEZEBELL WHO CALLED HERSELF A PROPHET, REVELATION 2:20. Tell me where God told women to prophecy in the New Testament. You are twisting scripture. God does not contradict himself. If He said that women are not to TEACH NOR usurp AUTHORY OVER THE MAN but be in silence He meant it. Spiritual gifts in no way contradict what God said in 1 Timothy 2:12. The Corinthian Church needed correction and so does today’s church. They have gone bonkers. Just sayin`

  12. Tyrone Flanagan Says:

    Dear everybody, the real issue with NAR prophets is not that they
    actually have some spiritual gifting, but their attempts to
    govern and control people, churches and the NAR movement. In my life time, I’ve seen the FT. Lauderdale prophets in the 1970’s
    (Bob Mumford, Derick Prince,and Simpson) and the Kansas City prophets in the 1990’s try and fail to do this. The results were
    nothing less than a train wreck; with lots of prophet abuses
    including out bursts of prophetic wrath, and open attempts to
    take over and prophetically shut down other churches. These
    prophetic movements historically refuse correction and taking
    responsibility for false prophecies. John Wimber attempted to
    bring some accountability to the Kansas City bunch and eventually
    gave up and separated from them. Prophets are supposed to function in team work with the local churches, not above them.
    This what can be seen in the book of Acts. We all need to be a
    living part of God’s family, submitting to one another in the fear of Christ. Too often, prophetic people are not embedded in
    covering relationships within the church. By this I mean,churches
    that they did not found themselves, and are not the unquestioned leader. Prophets need to be in the church, not above it or separated from it.
    Sincerely, Tyrone Flanagan

  13. nannette Says:

    Tyrone, your right! They think they rule. These people claim to be Christians and act like what John Calvin did in Geneva. Are not some of these folk the ‘New Calvinists?’ They go house to house now in house churches. They go everywhere preaching their false gospel. We should avoid them and leave them alone in their delusion and of course warn people who are under their heavy yokes.

  14. Delkin Says:

    Hey nannette, this could help. Here’s a paper written by a professor at Regent who is wrestling through some contradictory Scriptures regarding gender roles:

    http://www.jonruthven.org/womeninministry.pdf

    Also, Acts 21:9 shows there were women who engaged in prophecy after the resurrection of Christ: “He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.”

    I have never seen any pastor, teacher, or church follow the Scriptures regarding gender perfectly. Unless you are absolutely silent in church, only ask questions of your husband at home, cover your head and don’t ever teach a man then you are being “disobedient” to Scripture. I say this is quotes because I agree with Dr. Ruthven’s position – these passages are referring to specific situations and are directly contradicted by other portions of the New Testament.

  15. roger olson Says:

    Pretty much agree with Tyrone. have to read again and think.

  16. roger olson Says:

    Nan. did you read in 1st Corinthians chapter 14? Prophecy is for ALL. Paul says to desire Spiritual gifts. He said All here. Do you really think he just meant men? A long time ago. In my SBC church. the Sunday School teacher was a women. NO men would do it. Now do you think that was wrong? If no men will do it then God will raise up a women. Use logic . I think you are the one twisting scripture. God raised up some women in the O.T.. again God did that. Think. and if you read in the N.T. about the couple that was friends with Paul. Aquila and Priscilla. In one of Pauls letters he wrote Priscilla name first and Not Aquila. In the middle eastern world to do that meant she was more important than her husband.

  17. nan Says:

    Women are to know their God given role, if they don’t they are leading people astray. She is not the head, the man is. She is not to usurp authority over men, period. Today’s women prophets so called are not scriptural in what they teach, and how they act. There is a host of them including Beth Moore, Joyce Meyer’s, Sarah Young (Jesus calling), Paula White (Trumps spiritual adviser), and a host of other women who are disobeying God. There are women in the ministry who are giving the gospel out, they are warning the church about false teachers, etc. but they are not leading men in churches as their pastors, and preaching in the pulpits. These women don’t called themselves prophets and they don’t babble in tongues so called, they don’t love money, they don’t roll on the floor having laughing fits, they don’t have multiple husbands, but want to serve their LORD. #1 is to put on our armor. Eph. 6:17- says the sword is “the word of God”, not something made up or something that can’t be checked out through scripture. Not adding or taking away (Rev. 22:19). “NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; etc.” 1 Timothy 4:1-2. Jesus warned about false prophets (which includes women). And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Crist; and shall deceive many,, For there shall arise false Christ’s, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matt. 24:5,6,24. You want a women to rule over you go ahead- Isaiah 3:12 “As for my people, chidren are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.” Our president is not leading by example!

  18. nan Says:

    I wanted to make a point here. Ellen G. White is head of about 17 million members (according to wiki) and they are in many countries influencing many, through hospitals, schools, vegetarianism stores, etc. Many pastors who are men are teaching her doctrine. Tim Martin notes who the jesus of Adventism is, their doctrine, and it is as follows: jesus physically resembles the Father. jesus is Michael the archangel, jesus was sent as an example to vindicate the law, jesus is our example to prove we can live sinlessly, jusus incarnated in sinful flesh with a fallen nature, juesus will return when Adventists reproduce his character, jesus did not know if he would escape the tomb, jesus paid for past sins (only), jesus atonement is not complete, jesus will not be the scapegoat. I did not capitalize the sda jesus because they teach another jesus.

  19. nan Says:

    Delkin maybe you should do some research before you share links with people. Jon Ruthven is not someone I would listen to. Here is a link to look at: https://healingcertification.com/about-chcp/endorsements I’m done here, where is the discernment people? Just sayin’

  20. Delkin Says:

    Ehh…guilt by association without even considering the Scriptural arguments put forth…really?

    I’ve studied his work pretty extensively and he’s one of the most formative academics in the area of cessationism and Protestant theology regarding the works of the Spirit. A top-notch scholar with some essentially uncontested works out there.

    But hey, if a review on a website somehow makes his name not worthy of listening to, then more power to you.

    Blessings!

  21. roger olson Says:

    Nan, since you posted . So what are you posting on Holly,s website here? Do you think she should shut down and not post any thing, since she is a women? again why did Paul allow women to prophecy?

  22. nan Says:

    Dear Holly has the spiritual gift of discernment. 1 Corinthians 12:10. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1253&t=KJV What is noteworthy is the prophets speak and we are to judge. Most so called prophets are deceived and speak falsely (Isaiah 8:20, 1 Tim. 4:1-3) and we are to call them out so they don’t lead people astray. 1 Corinthians 14:29. That is not preaching in the pulpit. She has a website that warns re: Spirit of Error.

  23. roger olson Says:

    Nan, you just wrote and sidestepped the issue. Holly on the website is teaching. and i like Holly and need her and don,t agree with every issue. I probably agree with a lot of what she has on here.

    I want to know the truth of our Lord Jesus. do you too?

  24. nan Says:
  25. nan Says:

    Roger, you seem to be dull in hearing. The word ‘prophet’ is masculine, it does not say ‘prophetess’ in 1 Corinthians 14:29. There are no women mentioned in the New Testament as pastors or bishops which are to be men and the husbands of one wife: 1 Timothy 3. You can argue all you want but let God be true. Fact: There are only 2 women mentioned as prophetesses, Anna whom God called a Prophetess (before the death burial and resurrection of Christ)and Jezebel who called HERSELF a prophet: Luke 2:36, Revelation 2:20. See here in the concordance: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4396&t=KJV We are obviously in the age of Laodicea and men’s opinions seem to be more important that what GOD SAYS IN HIS WORD. I abhor Ellen G. White’s influence on many thousands of men and women who need the true LORD in heaven, and not the jesus of Seventh Day Adventism who is Michael the archangel. Even Seventh Day Adventists as wrong as they are in their doctrine don’t have women pastors, even though they have a false prophet as head of their religion. This is just one example of a women usurping authority over men.

  26. nan Says:
  27. roger olson Says:

    Nan , again you sidestepped the issue. Since Holly is “teaching Theology” Should she shut it down? that is the issue. I don,t care about 7th day adventists./ and i want to know the truth of Scripture. It is the Word of the living God. and you are wrong about 1st Corinthians . Paul is talking about the whole church.

  28. dean Says:

    Rodger you confuse prophecy with teaching the word… 2 different things…

  29. dean Says:

    Rodger said – . NO men would do it. Now do you think that was wrong? If no men will do it then God will raise up a women. Use logic

    Dean replys – Just because no men stood up God will not go against his word and raise up a women to teach the word… use logic… you have no scripture to back up what you say….does that matter to you? If you wish to listen to women teach the word then go for it… your gonna do it anyways…correct?

  30. Tyrone Flanagan Says:

    Dear everybody, The gifts of the H.S. listed in 1Cor are for
    the whole church; I don’t see any segregation based on gender
    in the text. If a woman can teach, her gift should not be limited
    to a woman’s bible study! If she is married, her husband should be
    on board with her calling, and her ministry should be released by
    her local church. If this is the case, I say to her, go for it! She is under no condemnation what so ever.

    I believe that what Paul was dealing with in 1Cor were women prophets who were disrupting the church and trying to take over
    the Corinthian congregation. This sort of thing has occurred in recent times among charismatics. Paul was trying to restore proper order and headship in the church. He was not attempting to segregate spiritual gifts by gender.

    Tyrone Flanagan

  31. dean Says:

    Rodger says: did you read in 1st Corinthians chapter 14? Prophecy is for ALL….

    Dean replys: v2-He v3-He v4-He v5-all who rodger?….

  32. dean Says:

    Rodger says:  if you read in the N.T. about the couple that was friends with Paul. Aquila and Priscilla. In one of Pauls letters he wrote Priscilla name first and Not Aquila. In the middle eastern world to do that meant she was more important than her husband.

    Really? Your gonna use whose name is first to validate your beliefs and since when does what others do impact what God says? Acts 18:26 – AQUILA and priscilia….. now is acts written before or after 1corthinians? now what….

  33. roger olson Says:

    Dean, tell me should Holly shut down spiritoferror.org? as she is teaching theology? I think she should continue to teach.

    in Acts 2. the long sermon by Peter he uses the book of Joel. but He says that “and your Sons and your DAUGHTERS SHALL prophesy.

    In Romans chapter 16 , verse 1 , by Paul says that ” our SISTER PHOEBE , a DEACON of the Church at Cenchrae… NRSV.

    Now do you think Phoebe taught or not? what did a Deacon do back then?

  34. nan Says:

    The church is in big trouble~ Oh brother! Holly is doing the right thing by exposing false teachers, and we can see by what is written in the comments as to what is happening in the church, which is validation. They don’t want correction, if you try they will just throw it in your face or change the subject. 2 Timothy 4:3&4. If women are in authority over men, then you men have fallen short of your role given you by God a head. Your authority is Jesus Christ not other men’s doctrines or women who claim to have some new dream or vision or who babble in tongues. I know, my community has them. I witnessed to a lady and was beginning to disciple her when a so called prophetess tongue speaker drew her away to her church, the Hillsong music keeps them happy. No doctrine!

  35. Donald Bate Says:

    The string of responses above serves as one example of a vast array of debatable doctrines which have been plaguing churches in various ways since almost the beginning, and particularly the last 1,700 years. No wonder there are so many divisions and denominations.. a laughing stock to the world, sadly. Not discounting the problems with NAR which Holly has aptly highlighted on this site, there continue to be many other issues in churches. In fact so serious are they, many will stand agahst before Jesus hearing those dreadful words “depart from me, I never knew you”. Nothing is more serious than that. And yes, He did say there will be MANY, not just a few. The fundamental cause is that “Christians” do not actually follow (obey) Christ. Most churchgoers don’t take His words seriously and therefore do not put His teachings into practice. Jesus likens such people as buildings built on sand, who will fall with a great crash on the “storm” of Judgement Day. Our correct response, therefore, is to repent of following other teachings so prevalent in the churches, and instead follow the Lord’s words, actually doing them. It’s so simple, yet so hard because only a few are willing to be as humble as little children.. a characteristic Jesus said is vital to entering the Kingdom. If readers are ready to go down that (narrow) road, I can recommend http://www.jesuswordsonly.com as a good resource to start your journey of transformation. Best of all, read the Gospels daily, and prayerfully ask God to inspire you with what to put into action in response to Jesus’s teachings. Arguing about doctrines that Jesus never taught won’t cut it.

  36. nannette Says:

    Donald Bate, you do know that the website you recommended is a Jesus Only or ‘Oneness’ site that does not believe in the Triune God head? That the Apostle Paul does not matter only the words of Jesus, and that only Jesus taught the gospel and that he K. Atred teaches that ‘Faith alone in Christ Alone’ is false doctrine and that we have to add to the gospel see what Paul says, Galatians 1:8&9. Paul preaches the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Don’t throw Paul out, or Peter, or John or Timothy or anyone one else. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” 2 Timothy 3:16. I would also look up 1 Corinthians 1:11-13, because it sounds like the website you recommended. J. Vernon McGee says of this verse: “In addition to the three groups (mentioned), a fourth group was saying, “We are of Christ”. They were not actually putting Christ first, but they were the super-duper spiritual group. It is my private opinion that this was the worst group of all. They made a little cult of Christ. Thy had their little clique in the church and they excluded other believers. They were the spiritual snobs.” parenthesis mine.

  37. nannette Says:

    From Donald Bates recommended site, Is this right? http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/175-pauls-contradictions-of-jesus.html Apparently I have been banned.

  38. Andy Says:

    A female cleaner puts up a sign saying, “Danger – slippery floor!” Should a male passer-by challenge her? She is, after all, revealing a new piece of objective truth to him. Is that “teaching”? Is she exercising some gift of prophecy? Is she assuming authority over men?

    Holly’s blog is that yellow plastic warning sign. She isn’t claiming any authority or general revelation, and you’re perfectly free to ignore the warning. But Holly won’t be guilty of not having told you.

  39. Tyrone Flanagan Says:

    Dear everybody, Women can teach,sing,speak and do whatever else the Spirit has gifted them to do in church. The Christian church would be a much more spiritually barren place without them. However, being a senior pastor, a bishop or a ruling elder is not their proper place in God’s order for the church. This isn’t because of inferiority, but is actually a greater place of servanthood. Jesus himself totally submitted to Hls Father and the Spirit when he was on earth. Likewise, the Holy Spirit doesn’t do anything on his own initiative, but only what he sees and hears from the Father and the Son. Didn’t Jesus say that he would be the greatest in the Kingdom of God must be the servant of all? Women who take a place of authority over men in the Body of Christ are in a place of great vulnerability to spiritual attack and deception. Just consider what happened to Amie Semple Macpherson or more recently with Paula White. They need the protection of their brothers in Christ. Tyrone Flanagan

  40. Dana Says:

    Thank you Holly for the work you have done to reveal the workings of this movement. Your continued updates are appreciated as well. Thanks to your research, many people now have a clear understanding of what to look for in their own churches regarding the NAR.
    I believe, as you do, that it is important to get this information out to those churches and individuals who may be unaware of this movement. Do you know of any organized efforts to get this knowledge out on local and state levels in which folks can participate? I live in Alaska, and I know that there is a growing presence of NAR affiliated churches and ministries which are on the move here, which is extremely concerning. I would like to team up with folks here locally to help spread awareness.

  41. JohnM Says:

    I’m in the UK and can see parallels here. The UK has it’s own NAR problem. 24/7 prayer group founded by Pete Greig (not IHOP, but founded on the same day as IHOP interestingly). I see the same errors here. There is an emphasis on ‘Celtic christianity’ I.e. Going back to ancient spirituality. There is a claimed ‘move of the spirit’ in the Celtic lands, and people like Karl Martin of Central Church, Edinburgh, who claims to be an apostle (although I haven’t read any recent written claim to this, I know he claimed it years ago) heading it, on the back of 3DM (founded by Mike Breen). Our church is now using worship songs from Hillsong, Bethel, Rend Collective (associated with band Urban Rescue who label themselves as a ‘revival’ band), Matt Maher, etc. I don’t think a church should use any of these songs, because of the source theology, e.g. NAR, Prosperity gospel, ecumenism. Hillsong and Bethel have now joined forces in joint worship events, so even if Hillsong aren’t as overtly (or obviously) incorrect as Bethel, by association they disqualify themselves from orthodoxy. There is no-one in the UK picking up on these errors, apart from individual concerned people like me, unlike in USA where there seems to be a growing voice against these errors, so they go unchecked here in the U.K. Can you please throw any light on the UK situation? Many thanks. John

  42. Angela Says:

    Hiya John, I too am from the UK, and yes, there is much to be concerned about here, having done nine months research on NAR/purpose driven/spiritual formation (all these things definitely seem to be converging, they are all using phrases like “world changers”, ” heroes” etc) …I reckon this may be one of the biggest “hubs” of NAR activity in the UK: http://www.revivalfires.org.uk/index.html

  43. JohnM Says:

    Hi Angela, thanks for your reply, much appreciated. I was a member of a church that has gone from being traditional evangelical to talking about being led by God (they would probably claim it was through a prophecy) through Jeremiah 29:7 to reach ‘the city’, i.e. in the same way that (they claim) the jews were to do in Jer 29, and that we’re in ‘exile’ just like the Jews. I wonder if you can see familiar terms there, from your research, in relation to NAR. That particular church in Scotland is also using 3DM (Mike Breen) and 24/7 prayer (Pete Greig, do you know Pete Greig?). These have all been introduced by a new pastor (of 3 years now). Although NAR is not mentioned in this church, I recognise NAR teachings, that everything will get better as we ‘partner with God’ (there’s that horrible phrase again). I liken it to the false prophets in Jeremiah 28-29, who prophesied that everything would be fine and the Jews would be back in Jerusalem in no time at all. Whereas, Jeremiah had a different story, i.e. you’re here because you sinned so make the best of it and wait on the Lord, there is nothing in the passage to use as a template for reaching out to the city. We are now in a different church but even there Hillsong and Bethel and Matt Maher songs are being introduced through a fairly new worship leader. I’ve pointed out these concerns but been told that each person can interpret the songs in their own way, i.e. we don’t need them to mean the same as the writers’ do. As John Piper said about using the term ‘reckless’, referring to God’s love, in a worship song (in a Bethel song), i.e John Piper said that it all depends what meaning you put on ‘reckless’. I disagree with JP, I think that if you use songs from a theological/gospel deficient source (or blatantly false gospel source) you are promoting that source and furthering their agenda (and the NAR is definitely an agenda). I’m not a conspiracy theorist, and tend towards giving people the benefit of the doubt, but it is blatantly clear from NAR proclamations that their agenda is to take over. Thanks again for the link and your reply Angela. Is your research in the public domain?

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