The Christian Post prints my response to Michael Brown’s ‘NAR Straw Man’

Radio host Michael Brown has been on a campaign to convince people that the New Apostolic Reformation is a myth and a conspiracy theory. Today the Christian Post printed my response to Brown’s claims, which, I argue, are misleading and are subjecting the body of Christ to confusion. I’m encouraged to see concerns about NAR gaining a wider audience. Check out the article here: “Michael Brown’s NAR Straw Man: Is the New Apostolic Reformation Just a Conspiracy Theory or Something More?

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Holly Pivec is the co-author of A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement and God’s Super-Apostles: Encountering the Worldwide Prophets and Apostles Movement. She has a master’s degree in Christian apologetics from Biola University.

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23 Responses to “The Christian Post prints my response to Michael Brown’s ‘NAR Straw Man’”

  1. roger olson Says:

    Sorry , but i think both sides have good points. i tend to side with Michael Brown. at the same time i want to stay in the center of Scripture. Show me from Scripture is what i will always say. which is why i side a little more from Dr.Michael Browns side. As mostly those against him are anti-charismatics. I don,t mean you Holly. And it makes me feel sad at those who are causing division in the Body of Christ. and i do think it is on both sides. and i also think that sometimes that God is going to hold those accountable for slander for attacking those who are Christians but reject them because they don,t hold to their version of interpretation of Scripture on minor points. as i saw recently on a web page that misrepretation of what Dr.Brown said. Again it was not you Holly. and i do agree that the Church must hold to the major doctrine in unity.

  2. Tanya Says:

    Excellent article, Holly. Thank you!

  3. Angie Says:

    Anything other than scripture is NOT Biblical. Therefore the more the NAR says, the more they are getting away from TRUTH. I am so thankful for you, Holly, and others who work tirelessly to share truth amid the false words coming from NAR and others.

  4. AriseMyLove Says:

    @RogerOlsen:

    What “good points’ has Michael Brown made? None. Holly eviscerated his stupidity. And she is being too “nice” about it.

    The NAR are operating in the same spirit as Mormons. They are attempting to have an earthy government by which they will add to the Word of God vis a vis their false prophets.

    Again, there is nothing “benign” about false prophecy. These NAR liars are operating out of a familiar spirit or a demonic counterfeit… i.e. demons. Just like Jezebel and her false prophets, it is meant to mislead God’s people and drag them into hell.

    This is not just a theological debate, where “we agree to disagree”… this is not a Biblical idea. There is only one Truth, and “scripture is not for any private interpretation”.

    Either these NAR false prophets and governing Apostles are speaking for God or they are speaking for Satan There really is no middle ground.

    The Lord Himself warned us…

    DISCIPLES:”What is the sign of Your Second Coming and of the end of the world?”

    JESUS: “Beware deception… and false prophets (and false prophecy!)

  5. Samuel Lamonde Says:

    @Roger, most of the people are not against charismatics but against the tons of abherations that are found into the movement. If every teachers were “orthodoxe” like Leonard Ravenhill or John Piper, it would be another story… But the problem is far far away from simply being a question of contuationism and cessationism.

  6. Delkin Says:
  7. roger olson Says:

    So i just saw a response back on Christian Post this morning, May15, 18. So i would suggest everybody read it by Dr.Brown. I do hold to the view point of 5 -fold. prove me wrong from Scripture. Prove Dr.Brown wrong from Scripture. I think Elders , Pastors are to be the ones that “Govern” the Church. I don,t believe in any of this nonsense of New Revelations for the Church. there is no more Scripture being wrote down. I don,t know of anybody claiming that. if so ignore them. and again prophecy is still here today.

  8. Delkin Says:

    “I don,t believe in any of this nonsense of New Revelations for the Church. there is no more Scripture being wrote down. I don,t know of anybody claiming that. if so ignore them. and again prophecy is still here today.”

    Hey Roger, I know Holly had adamently stated that this debate has nothing to do with the cessation of the charismatic gifts of 1 Corinthians 12-14. I respect her statement as representative of her views and what she argues in her book.

    However, I’ve interacted with about 30 cessationists over the last week to figure out what they believe. Almost all of them believe that prophecy is equal to “new revelation”. In fact, a few of them explicitly said that those who prophesy are “holding their opinions of equal weight or greater authority” to that of Scripture. One of them even said that Matt Chandler (a well-known Baptist-type name), who is seeking the gift of prophecy, is seeking to replace Scripture with his opinions. In other words, of the cessationists I’ve interacted with, almost all believe that prophecy is “new revelation”.

    The cessationists I’ve talked with latch on to the fact that prophecy is a form of “revelation” and using an assumption that all “revelation” is Scripture, equate it to “new revelation” or “new Scripture”.

    As per what I believe, I’m in Sams Storms’ camp as to prophecy and “revelation”:

    http://www.samstorms.com/enjoying-god-blog/post/prophets-and-prophecy

    – “Some have mistakenly equated NT prophecy with preaching, but Paul declares that all prophecy is based on a revelation”

    – “The NT’s use of the noun “revelation” or the verb “to reveal” actually reflects a wide range of meaning and need not be taken as referring to the sort of authoritative revelation that would undermine the finality of the canon. Rather, the apostle likely has in view the sort of divine disclosure or unveiling in which the Spirit makes known something previously hidden”

    – “Thus, prophecy is not based on a hunch, supposition, inference, educated guess, or even sanctified wisdom. Prophecy is the human report of a divine revelation. This is what distinguishes prophecy from teaching.”

  9. Kevin Lewis Says:

    Holly,

    As usual, well done!

  10. AriseMyLove Says:

    @RogerOlsen

    I didn’t see a response by Dr. Brown… please link.

    You don’t seem to understand that exposing the NAR has been going on for more than a decade now, and its heresy is codified.

    We are to be as wise as serpents; we are to test all things; we are to be Bereans about how the Gifts are used in the Church today.

    I have seen the devastation in the lives of people in the NAR; it is not a pretty sight.

    So please stop your meaningless whining, @RogerOlsen

  11. roger olson Says:

    was in Christian Post this morning. and i am not whining. gezzzz. maybe you should read.

  12. AriseMyLove Says:

    @Delkin

    Interesting angle of attack you got going there, Delkin, trying to capitalize on the fact that since Cessationists don’t believe prophecy is for today their criticisms about false prophecy are invalid.

    As a charismatic Pentecostal, I of course believe prophecy is for today. its just not to be taken as the Word of God in the Bible, AS TEACHERS IN THE NAR LIKE BILL HAMON TEACH.

    Yep. They actually teach that you are to take their insane and idiotic prophetic words as SCRIPTURE.

    So do your homework next time you post. These NAR liars are dangerous and yes, INSANE, drunk on the same spirit of false prophecy God sent to Ahab.

    How do we avoid this NAR anti Christ spirit? By staying “in love with the Truth”, to paraphrase Thessalonians.

    The Lord is good.

    And He is the Truth.

    And He is the Word. Praise God!

  13. AriseMyLove Says:

    @RogerOlsen

    LOL, I read Brown’s statement. Very devious. He’s trying to draw Holly out under his terms. I think instead, we should vet Brown’s background and affiliations. Plus I’ve never heard of the people he quoted on being drunk in the spirit.

    Whatever. Brown’s motives and background should be researched… i.e. where does he get his money and why would a real Christian NOT be alarmed at the NAR? (That’s the real question here. ANY Christian should be alarmed by the NAR, Cessationist or not.)

    Also, one of the NAR tactics is to form a network of churches that “tithe” to each other as corporate bodies, so the Pastors are not accountable to their sheep.

    Let’s take Rick Joyner. His people were so raped for funds at his church, that his church told people to go out and get the public to pay them for their prophecies! Yep, Joyner instructed his people to essentially be fortune tellers for God… getting paid for their personal prophecies. (This is the abomination of Simony, btw).

    In Joyner’s book TWO TREES IN THE GARDEN, Joyner effectively denies the Father and the Son… which according to the Word of God, makes him antiChrist.

    (This is decades-old criticism that Brown pretends doesn’t exist or he just hasn’t done his homework).

    If I remember correctly, Joyner even denies that Jesus was crucified in the flesh. But I digress.

    The real issue is we are dealing with demons, as in doctrines of demons, in the NAR.

    These are cunning, subtle hateful twisters of the Word and truth. I recall some almost humorous (and therefore macabre) twisting of the Word from Joyner or one of his buddies, Paul Cain or Bob Jones, about how NAR prophets were the wheat and people who didn’t believe in NAR prophets were the “tares” simply because they didn’t believe (as Joyner did) that Bob Jones and Paul Cain might have been the “Two End Time Prophets” of the Bible! Crazy cray like that.

    Absolute unclean spirits are teaching this stuff in the NAR. Why isn’t this Brown dude worried? Why in the world would he be attacking Holly?

    Lord bless this site and I pray, Lord God, that You expose this NAR deception and the demonic forces perpetuating it.

    Lord awaken Your people… for if we cannot discern false prophets and false prophecy in the church now, HOW will we discern the False Prophet of Revelation?

  14. Delkin Says:

    @AriseMyLove

    “Delkin, trying to capitalize on the fact that since Cessationists don’t believe prophecy is for today their criticisms about false prophecy are invalid…So do your homework next time you post”

    Hey brother (or sister), I’ve “done my homework” so to speak. I’ve been aware of the names that Holly labels “NAR” for a while and even was a member of a church in the mid-90s that sat under Wagner’s teaching and practices and hosted him on occasion. I’ve done most of the “naughty” “NAR” stuff and sat under “NAR” teaching for many years.

    I feel that you’ve made it abundantly clear that you believe the “NAR” is a thing and that those teachers in it are “dangerous”, “liars”, “anti-Christ”, committing “abominations”, teaching “doctrines of demons”, “cunning”, “hateful”, “twisters of the Word”, led by “unclean / demonic spirits”, and part of “deception”.

    Could I ask you to consider two things?

    1. Would you please consider using different words in how you refer to those you disagree with? I’ve dialoged with a number of Christians in the presence of atheists and they literally laugh at us when we use phrases like this. To them, this kind of language shows that our “Gospel” really isn’t good news because we sound even more aggressive than the political dialog of the day. I think Jesus really meant it when He said we would be known by our love. Yes, love delights in the truth – but it is also patient and kind towards those we disagree with.

    2. Please consider the possibility, no matter how slight, that you could be off in even one of your accusations. I know that this seems like an absolute impossibility, but on the off chance that even one of these accusations you are making isn’t 100% correct, what you have said could be called “slander”. Further, if even one of these teachers actually is being led by the Spirit and what he or she is teaching is inspired by the Holy Spirit, then calling it “doctrines of demons” is not a good position to be in. I know that this seems like a very remote possibility, but please do consider the fact that our perceptions of others rarely line up to reality – especially when we are not in direct contact with those we disagree with.

  15. AriseMyLove Says:

    @Delkin

    Ummm… wow… you are so … out of it. Sorry.

    First off, “we agree to disagree” is a worldly idea, NOT a Biblical practice when it comes to false teaching and false prophecy.

    Instead of agreeing to disagree with anyone who teaches false doctrine, Jesus tells us never to TOLERATE Jezebel, “who calls herself a prophetess” who “teaches the so-called deep things of Satan”.

    Note that Christ’ “tone” here is sarcasm: “she teaches the ‘so called’ deep things of Satan”!!! Jesus is being sarcastic about Jezebel’s false teachings that lead her children to spiritual death.

    So please don’t give me that old shibboleth of criticizing me for my “tone”.

    Would you criticize Christ for His “tone” when discussing the deadly counterfeits of Jezebel?

    Jesus clearly says we are not to have “passive agreement” or toleration with false teachings or false prophets, so I have no idea what you are trying to criticize me for.

    We are to expose evil and deception; we are to “pull down strongholds and every thought that resists the knowledge of God”

    (LOL “Strongholds” in NAR thinking is another false teaching, btw!!

    According to Paul, a “stronghold” is a series of thoughts or false beliefs that imprison a person in wrong thinking…

    … but those crazy NAR peeps… they “pray” against strongholds instead of recognizing that they need to use their minds to disentangle false beliefs and false thoughts and replace them with Biblical Truth! )

    Are we to be nice to Mormons who call themselves Latter Day Apostles and Prophets (almost the same way the NAR does?) Are we to “tolerate” their false teachings and the false prophecy of Joseph Smith? NOT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE; we are to call heresy out.

    If anyone preaches a Gospel different than that which has been preached, “let them be accursed”!!!!

    If you criticize me, you criticize Paul’s “tone” and accuse him also of “slander”…

    But, and again LOL, slander is only slander if you are purposely lying or telling purposeful lies against someone.

    (I’d appreciate an apology for that insinuation. Thanks in advance.)

    Here are some things I recall from decades of being in an NAR church and watching the sheep of that church suffer as their faith was slaughtered:

    Bob Jones, a dead liar and false prophet, who had a mother and daughter strip naked in his office so he could “prophesy” over them!

    Paul Cain speaks through familiar spirits and was caught with heterosexual men whom he was trying to “cure of their homophobia” by having sex with them. In his office. While he was “praying” over them. Cain is BFFs with Rick Joyner, too.

    Rick Joyner false prophet, caught many many many times in heresy, twisting Scripture, assigning to the Apostle Paul false sins and most publicly, failed to recognize Todd Bentley was in blatant sin (adultery) at Lakeland when he and the other demonized “NAR Apostles” were “anointing” Bentley. Or something.

    Cindy Jacobs. Sad case. Many many many false prophecies. A famous one from about 2005 was that God was going to change people’s genders who were born in the wrong body. Yep. She actually prophesied this. Oh, and there is a list somewhere of all of these Council of Apostolic Elders or some other such nonsense that these fakers believe… that they sit in and conference with God almighty while we plebs must support them and their false teachings in phony obeisance.

    Oh, yeah, and you know that Todd Bentley went to jail for raping an underage boy? And the parents of that boy have never been compensated or dealt with love in repentance by Bentley. And that he beat up his mother? Well before he divorced his wife at Lakeland.

    Do your homework on these FALSE PROPHETS OF HELL, please. This is a counterfeit movement of familiar spirits and doctrines of demons.

    Sorry you are so late to the party, but you are asking me to tolerate antiChrist?

    We are to TEST THE SPIRITS, dude. Now go do your homework and ask the Lord for the gift of “discernment of spirits” so you can understand that if we cannot discern false teaching and false prophecy now, HOW will we discern The False Prophet when he is revealed?

  16. Delkin Says:

    @AriseMyLove

    I guess I have nothing else to say to you along these fronts. I would just encourage you to consider that rarely do we have all of the facts in line before we form our conclusions.

    If you’d like a reasoned discussion and investigation regarding “NAR” beliefs and practices, I’m more than happy to discuss.

  17. Samuel Lamonde Says:

    @Roger. I think dr. Brown would whitewash the Antichrist himself if he was charismatic.., come on it’s getting ridiculous…About the NAR and five fold, You should now look into Chris Rosebrough (fighting for the faith) youtube channel last video on dr. Micheal Brown and NAR whitewashing. And (even if) I don’t think his mocking tone is necessary or always adequate, his channel is (I guess) pretty helpful to help some people stock in this heretical movement and for sure expose the ridiculous of the third wave movement.

  18. Samuel Lamonde Says:

    @Arise my love. Seriously, even if they surely hold to damnable heresies.., I think JW, Mormons, Adventist, got more credits then the “signs and wounders” mouvement, at the very least they don’t fabric in manufacture (tons of) false Prophets..

  19. AriseMyLove Says:

    @Delkin

    LOL, reasoned discussion is what I’ve given you, and you are still trying to discredit what has long been investigated.

    I’ve lived it, and most importantly in our relationship to the Lord, my grief is for the slaughtered sheep of this NAR (antiChrist) movement.

    Consider the reason that the angel puts a mark on the forehead in Ezekiel (keeping in mind how this scene is confirmed/complemented with God’s invisible mark on the foreheads in Revelation…)
    9;2
    And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate,
    which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand;
    and one man among them was clothed with linen,
    with a writer’s inkhorn by his side:
    and they went in,
    and stood beside the brasen altar.
    9:3
    And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub,
    whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house.
    And he called to the man clothed with linen,
    which had the writer’s inkhorn by his side;
    9:4
    And the LORD said unto him,
    Go through the midst of the city,
    through the midst of Jerusalem,
    and
    set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

    Who is given God’s invisible mark on the forehead here and In Revelation?

    THOSE WHO SIGH AND THOSE WHO CRY FOR ALL THE ABOMINATIONS THAT ARE BEING DONE IN OUR MIDST…

    This site by Holly is God’s work. We are to sigh and cry out at apostasy and heresy!

    What is expressed in Ezekiel 8 is exactly what we are seeing in the NAR, and you have given no proof to the contrary!

    We are to be shaken to our bones, as was Jeremiah (if not Paul at Alexander the Coppersmith) at the abomination of False Prophesy and False teaching.

    And I’ll give you brownie points if you can explain why God’s invisible mark is on our foreheads… (as an obvious aside, this is what Satan will surely counterfeit in his time, i.e. the mark of the Beast that Satan will explain is “God’s invisible mark”)

    But do you know why the Lord writes on the foreheads of those whom He is sparing from destruction?

    Again, @Delkin: This is AntiChrist stuff.

    If you can show me where my attitude is wrong here, or how the Lord would have reasoned discussion with apostates, operating in doctrines of demons, please provide Biblical evidence.

    Or refute any of the facts I have discussed.

    And I’ll be more than happy to discuss your objections with you at that time.

    Until then, I’m going to be “sighing and crying out at abominations in our midst” as per Ezekiel 9:2-4

  20. AriseMyLove Says:

    @Samuel Lamonde

    Push a little hard on Mormons/JW’s and, just like in the NAR, you will bump up against a terrible spiritual pride.

    See, Jezebel really “hooks” people on “the so-called deep things of Satan”. They get all proud that they have all this knowledge about “spiritual warfare”, etc.

    Things like Cindy Jacobs/NAR teachings on “leylines” for example.

    This is just plain witchcraft in the Church. Mormons do have prophets, too, and Joseph Smith’s prophesies are supernaturally given by familiar spirits and other assorted demons.

  21. Samuel Lamonde Says:

    All I’m saying is at least they have a structure the’re not left loose in the nature infecting the evangelical world and they don’t do in the massive production of false Prophetes infecting evangelical world instead they perpetues the errors of there false Prophetes who (more then likely) started their sects..

  22. AriseMyLove Says:

    It’s the same counterfeit or witchcraft entities informing Mormons etc., (i.e. demons or doctrine of these demons) same as the NAR.

  23. roger olson Says:

    Samuel, I am not really that interested in Chris R. Why, he is not interested in what i think , since i believe in all Spiritual Gifts are for today. I even saw a post by Dr.White where he tells Chris about mocking Dr.Brown as not helpful. the way that Chris was doing it was just over the top. talk about Spiritual Pride.

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