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NAR Prophet Bob Jones Dies

Bob Jones headshotBob Jones, a prominent prophet in the New Apostolic Reformation movement, died Friday, February 14.

Jones’ prophetic words, given over four decades, influenced many leaders in the New Apostolic Reformation movement, including Mike Bickle, founder of the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City, Missouri. Bickle details Jones’ influence on the history of IHOP in a video posted on the IHOP web site.

In the video, Bickle refers to Jones as “a very important prophetic man, at least in my life, and in the early days of this movement.” Bickle describes how Jones prophesied to him, in 1983, that God was going to raise up worldwide a young adult prayer movement led by prophetic singers and musicians in Kansas City. Jones claimed to have had 100 “open visions” giving him revelation about this movement.

Though Bickle was, at first, skeptical of Jones–and even wondered if Jones was a false prophet–he became convinced that Jones was a true prophet when Jones accurately predicted a snowfall on March 21, 1983, after several weeks of unseasonably warm weather. (This account can also be read in Bickle’s book Growing in the Prophetic.) Jones also told Bickle something that only Bickle and Bickle’s father, who had died, knew–something very personal and meaningful that had been said between Bickle and his father–further convincing Bickle that Jones was a true prophet.

Charisma Magazine’s article “Prophet Bob Jones Passes Away” provides a link to tributes to Jones from Bickle as well as from Bill Johnson (senior pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California) and Rick Joyner (founder of MorningStar Ministries in Fort Mill, South Carolina).

What the Charisma article does not mention is that, in 1991, Jones was removed from ministering in a Vineyard church after confessing to sexual misconduct with two women. This misconduct included encouraging the women to undress in his office “so they could stand ‘naked before the Lord’ in order to receive a ‘word.'”

— By Holly Pivec

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37 Responses to “NAR Prophet Bob Jones Dies”

  1. Richard Says:

    Holly thanks for your objective reporting but I am digging deep to try and shed a tear over this news.  Jones has spawned a generation of false prophets who have spoken words from their imaginations and dreams that are not from God (Jer. 23:9-40 and more) and have led many to follow another Gospel.
    As far as the NAR is concerned, the dominion camp has largely been embarrassed by their attempts though they persist as they try to infiltrate the religious right.
    I would hope that this news would be the beginning of the end for the false prophet movement but I’d be betting against Jesus prophetic Word in Matthew 7:22.
    I expect they will grow based on 2 Timothy 4:3 and more.   
    Holly there are a few things going on here as I see it from my direct experience.  One is that you may have spared a few from getting involved with these creeps.  Thank You.  And second, the false prophets are starting to “cover” in response to you and others scriptural criticism trying to seem main-stream. Too late.  Last and most alarming is that the false prophet leaders are using the Jones death news to reinvigorate their ranks to new levels of deception.
    Holly I hope that you and yours keep sounding the alarm.  If Paul the apostle was here today, and he is actually through Gods Word, He would be sounding the alarm and called divisive.  When we read the NT whenever the apostles were not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ they were warning of false teaches.
    My life was radically changed by the real Gospel of Christ’s life, death, resurrection and filling me with His Spirit and mercifully, somehow, gave me the desire to know truth from error and I hope anyone reading your forum will come to know His truth too.

    Jeremiah 23:9-40
    Lord Bless,

  2. Michelle Says:

    I don’t know whether any individual who spreads a false gospel is simply deceived or is deliberately working to harm to the Body of Christ.  But the spirit behind all the assaults on God’s truth doesn’t die and seeks to deceive even the elect if possible.

    Please, read and study your Bibles.  Check every teaching.  All of us have had times when a false teaching almost drew us in.  The truth of Scripture is our only protection.

  3. Matthew Stephen Says:

    Bob Jones and his death a look form a different view. I know that Bob fell and the prophetic movement of the fan fare the false works of darkness the false works of Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner and the all that type has sent the seed of darkness in the body and the followers became dark. What  I see coming is a great sword out of heaven of Judgment. for today the Church has no need for Repentance or god’s law. I pray that we would see massive Repentance and turning back to the Holy word of God. please read this letter on my site. I hope you will understand my heart. I am calling for correction among all those, I know there has been no change yet.

    Matthew Stephen

  4. Booboo Says:

    @Michelle Christians can be deceived. Mathew 24 where Jesus says “even the elect if possible” the “if possible” is a condition clause. In Greek there are 4 possible conditional clauses. In this case, it’s the first class conditional clause, meaning, “if possible= AND IT IS” so you can read the scripture as ‘if possible, the elect will be fooled, and it is possible’ (first class conditional clause in the Greek). As far as bob jones goes, there’ll be 10 more liars trying to take his position of worthlessness. I think he was too demonised in the mind. He believed the truth was a lie, & a lie the truth. No one could have that much guts talking crazy like he did without having shame. Chin up fellow saints, our citizenship is in heaven, don’t be over come to much by the things of this world. Remember, we are just passing by. Fight the good fight, divide the word of God correctly, show hospitality etc. Pray also for holly, & people who are fighting these false apostles & teachers. It’s a war… Gods peace to you..!

  5. Hope Says:

    Holly, the comment concerning the women left me with a sick feeling.  This time, disgust outweighs sympathy.  No one wins in the game of deception.

  6. I have seen some of what I thought to be seasoned christian leaders fall for this deception. Even though scripture tells us that even the most elect will be decieved, it is still very hard to understand:( Says:

    I have seen some of what I thought to be seasoned christian leaders fall for this deception. Even though scripture tells us that even the most elect will be decieved, it is still very hard to understand:(

  7. Jessica Franco Says:

    I have a serious question. Do you really believe that prophets and apostles no longer exist? Also, what is your stance on the gifts of the Spirit existing today? Before I can take anything you write seriously, I need to know if you people are legitimately believers in the God who is I Am, or if you’re just really religious modern day Pharisees who love their traditions and man-made religion void of the power and presence of God who call themselves “conservative” and “cessationists” with pride.

  8. Jonathan Says:

    Jessica, I believe in modern day apostles and prophets and all the gifts of the Spirit listed in the Bible.  I can’t accept cessationism as it is not clear in the scriptures at all and I feel that it cannot be shown at all without wresting 1 Cor 13:10 to mean the Bible when I believe it means the perfecting of the saints.  So yes, I believe in those things yet I can see that the NAR is from the enemy, only a counterfeit of the true.  If you are struggling with this issue, let me assure you that you can enter the kingdom of God and have a real, supernatural Christian life but that these false teachers will lead you into a form of pagan new age religious experience.  Just one way to discern them is how they are well-respected and often rich, but the real apostles are the “offscouring of all things unto this day”–that means scum of the earth (see 1 Cor 4:8-14).  Your life will be totally be given over to Jesus if you are a true prophet or an apostle–not just talking about him in front of other Christians but dying to all your own desires daily so that you can be filled with the life of Jesus to preach the Gospel to the lost world.  They are glamorous Christian celebrities but true apostles and prophets are despised and regarded as religious fools.  I think a lot of people covet the honour of being a prophet or an apostle but would hate the actual life.

  9. Believer Says:

    Bob Jones has spewed out so many outrageous and unscriptural things over the years, including that the tribulation was over in 2001, and we are in the millenium (Ontario Canada, 2009). He preached another Christ (read in the history of the IHOP about his familiar friend “Dominus” who Jones said was the Lord. That spirit said it would visit as a familiar friend named “Don”). Jones contradicted scriptures  constantly, preached another gospel, and added to the prophecies of scripture  over and over again.Jones introduced Sharnael Wolverton and Patricia King to an eagle spirit guide named Swift. Animal spirit guides are from shaminism. The Bible says in Romans 8:14 “for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God”. Jesus warned that many false prophets would arise, and we were to take heed that no man deceive us.(Matthew 24).

  10. John B Says:

    Jessica, I’m a new and fairly sporadic comment leaver here but my thoughts for what they are worth.

    Firstly I believe the gifts of the spirit are definitely for today. I cannot find any Scriptural justification for the cessationist argument that doesn’t involve twisting specific verses to meet a predetermined conclusion. If we’re going to twist Scripture to suit our own ends we might as well be honest about our aims, throw our Bibles in the trash, and follow Aleister Crowley’s guidance of “Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law”.

    The validity of the spiritual gifts does not mean that every manifestation is from God. Jesus warned of false prophets, Paul lauded the Bereans for studying Scripture to test his teachings (Acts 17:10-11) and encouraged the Thessalonians to “test all things, hold fast what is true” (1 Thess 5:21). John wrote to not believe every spirit but test the spirits (1Jn 4:1).

    What troubles me with a lot of modern day teaching (I don’t know Bob Jones’ teachings but can comment from what I’ve seen of the likes of Bill Johnson and Brent Engelman) is that it discourages Scriptural testing. Johnson writes of “going off the map”, Engelman encourages would-be seers to “open their minds” and that “when the visions start trust they are from God and accept them like a child”. This sort of thing is, as far as I can tell, in direct contradiction to Scriptural callings to test and “be sober, be vigilant” (1Pe 5:8).

    When teachers appear so eager to discourage people from testing their teachings against Scripture, when they appear so keen to come up with good reasons why things don’t need to be tested, it is hard to form conclusions other than they are horribly misguided or they are wolves.

  11. Jessica Franco Says:

    Thank you for your replies.  To Jonathan in his response about 1 Corinthians 4 and apostles being the scum of the earth… How many of y’all bad mouth guys like Michael W. Smith or Dr. James Dobson?  I feel like this group of people you guys talk about are totally the scum of the earth to y’all.  You have completely rejected them based on things you read that other people write or things you read that they said that were probably taken way out of context.  And wealth, does not negate you from ministry.  Nor does dressing well.  Ask any pastor who preaches in his nicest suit (or designer jeans as it is these days).  Having possessions does not make you a false prophet.  Believing that God doesn’t want you living in poverty does not make you a false prophet either. 

    And to John B., I appreciate you taking the time to answer, but never in a million years does Bill Johnson discourage reading scripture.  Nor I have I ever heard ANY OF THESE PEOPLE be so blatant as to discourage testing things in scripture.  That right there is just a complete lie from hell.  You don’t understand anything they preach if you think they are telling you that!  I mean have you ever really listened to Bill Johnson preach? He preaches about his experiences with God yes, but he pulls things out of scripture that are so deep and profound. I mean, what you said is just so completely ridiculous. I have heard most of these people speak that you people hate (along with a whole lot of believers that I’m sure y’all LOOOOOVEEE like John Piper, right? Dr. Dobson? and all of those other conservative, wholesome, non-controversial people that are great and that I respect) and they are seriously nothing like you say.  They testify to the Bible constantly.  They encourage believers to test words.  I learned that from this group of people.  They encourage people to read Scripture and to know God in his Word.  In fact, Mike Bickle from IHOP does that more than any other person I have ever heard speak. He loves the Word, and knows the Word, more than anyone I have ever heard preach.  And in 30 years of being a believer, I have heard a whole lot of Christans speak.  And there were a lot that I knew were completely dead on the inside.  They had nothing of God in them.  It is super obviouswhen that happens. A sheep, however dumb we are, know when some wolf is walking around in a sheep costume.  It’s not that hard to discern.  However, if you are a goat, it may be harder for you to know who the sheep imposters are.  These wolves talk about money and they are obviously manipulative.  They take advantage of their congregations, and these people that you have bashed on do not make that a part of their ministry like you claim they do.  Bob Jones possibly screwed up over 25 years ago.  I don’t know.  But I know it is also documented that he was publicly brought forward by the leaders of the church, removed from ministry, went through church discipline, and repented openly.  Does sinning sexually negate someone’s relationship with God or their ministry? If the Bible were my answer book to this question, David is a great example of how that isn’t true. 

    I seriously know God, and I have a beautiful, loving, vibrant relationship with the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that is increasing in depth every day. And I just cannot take you guys seriously when you discount all these things from these people because they know and experience God in a different way than you do.  It make you feel uncomfortable.  I get it.  It makes a lot of people uncomfortable.  That’s why this website exists.  You quote stuff out of context.  You listen to each other and you have no clue who these men actually are.  Guess what?  God is going to offend you someday in some way. God is totally offensive.  He does stuff that makes you uncomfortable.  If that is your gauge, that and a couple of scriptures that you have applied to people you think are “false” prophets, then you are short-changing yourself.  And more importantly, you are short-changing the omnipotent God who created you and wants you to know Him more.

    Thank you for replying.  I know who wolves are. Y’all cleared that up really well to me.  I don’t know if a lot of the people on here are either blinded or they are purposely trying steal the rich experience of the love and presence of the spirit of God.  But either way, if I listend to you defaming those that encourage believers to swim in the deep rivers of God’s overwhelming love and the experience of his touch, I would miss out on so much of my relationship with the Lord.  It just would not even be worth it.  I believe you are my brothers and sisters in Christ if you believe in the sufficiency of the death of Jesus Christ and in his resurrection, so I will just hope that you experience the depths of God in spite of yourselves.

  12. Jacob b Says:

    I used to be real involved with the movement and l left because the lack of discernment,  and openness to any spiritual manifestation.  I know lots of these “prophetic” super spiritual type folks still in the movement, and they generally all look good in public but lack the basics of serving,  obedience and doing the prayer and fasting like Jesus said in private, not on microphones.   I here these guys prophesy lots that never came to pass and yet they are still called prophets,  I don’t get that.   However I will say this,  I had been to Bob Jones home in the past and he did live very modestly,  I know he could be rich off the people who follow him like a cult, so i did respect that.  I think he was sincere.  Did love people.  He tried to follow God in how he thought was right.  
    I have heard these leaders discourage testing spirits on several occasions. Especially during the ihop “awakening” and i was there in person.  I will say yes i have also heard them say test the spirit and test against scripture, but not when the nuttyness is going on, its all about just accept it.   I do agree though, I have seen folks on this site take quotes way out of context,  in a very deceitful way.  Twisting what was said or implied.  
    Now I say if God wants people out of anything and into something else, he will have to do it.  I’ve never convinced adie hard believer of any opposing view, and i know at times only God could open my eyes.  So i will serve Him, pray HE leads them out of errors, and that HE leads me out of my errors. 

    Although I don’t view this as a loss in a spiritual sense, I think it’s a very sad thing for his family.  I have friends who were very close to him, I am sad they lost a friend.  

  13. John B Says:

    Jessica, you have misquoted me.

    Brent Engelman used the words I attributed to him in his prophetic training materials. He says precisely that, when (not if) the visions start trust they are from God. If you don’t believe me, read page 10 of his own training documentation for yourself: http://bengelman.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/lesson-four-the-seer-realm.pdf

    At the bottom of page 9 of the same document he writes ” If we ask the Lord for vision to see in the seer realm, we can be confident that the power of God to keep us safe is stronger than the power of the enemy to deceive us”. If it was as easy as that I wonder why Jesus, Paul and John bothered to warn us of false prophets, encouraged us to test all things, and encouraged us to test the spirits.

    I also didn’t say that Bill Johnson discourages reading Scripture. I’ve seen a few examples of him speaking on YouTube and to be honest I was surprised that people were applauding him. After reading his book “When Heaven Invades Earth” it was hard to conclude much other than we are little gods (which wasn’t true when the devil told Eve and isn’t true today), that we should follow the Spirit rather than the Bible (if the two ever conflict we can be reasonably sure it isn’t the Holy Spirit we are hearing, hence the call to “test all things”).

    Thanks for calling what I wrote a lie from hell when you misquoted me. Read Brent Engelman’s document and tell me if you think that “trust it’s from God and accept it like a child” even remotely resembles the Biblical call to “test all things” (1Thess 5:21). Read what Bill Johnson writes about how we can perform miracles and see how you think it measures up. Listen to what he has to say about situations like when Jesus rebuked the storm.

    The first time I read “When Heaven Invades Earth” I thought it was incredibly powerful. Then some years later I read it again but considered the individual points Johnson was making, as opposed to the first time I read it when I regarded it as a “how to” manual simply because it was written by someone who led a church. The second time it looked more like he was trying to pull a point out of Scripture that wasn’t there, to then build on it to support the point he wanted to make.

    The most obvious example is the question of just who Jesus the man was. From page 29 of WHIE (and this is a word-for-word quote, so don’t be saying he didn’t write this): “He performed miracles, wonders, and signs, as a man in a right relationship to God…not as God. If He performed miracles because He was God, then they would be unattainable for us. But if He did them as a man, I am responsible to pursue His lifestyle. Recapturing this simple truth changes everything…and makes possible a full restoration of the ministry of Jesus in His Church”.

    So what do we make of this? Was Jesus God, or was he merely a man in a right relationship with God? If he wasn’t God, how is divinity gained and lost? If he wasn’t God, under whose authority did he forgive sins? When the Pharisees were unhappy him forgiving sins, saying that only God can forgive sins, he didn’t correct them on a point of law that anyone in a “right relationship with God” could forgive sins, he merely told them that the Son of Man had authority to forgive sins.

    It seems to me that Johnson is looking to present a choice, assume incorrectly which option is true, and then build further on a bad assumption.

  14. John C Says:

    Jessica Franco, I have to respond to your last post.  You’re calling the posters out for what you call “bashing” people such as Bob Jones and Mike Bickle.  That’s not at all what it’s about.  The Bible tells us to not only watch for false teachers but also tells us to call them out for perverting the Word.  The false teachers, along with those who follow them, they tend to accuse the ones who call them out of judging others.  It is, but in the way the Bible tells us (every Christian) to do so.

    A few years ago I’d never even heard of IHOP when a friend told me about it, that it was a place of 24 hour prayer and praise & worship.  I thought that sounded great, and we made the several hour trip to go there.  I went expecting great things.  Now, it’s not up to me or anyone else to judge another person’s heart, and I don’t.  That’s for Jesus.  I will judge a big part of that experience, though.  People were walking around stumbling, slurred speech, falling on the ground and passing out… they called it being “drunk in the Spirit.”  There were people speaking in tongues, and the leaders said some people are lucky enough to find out what they were saying.  There were “faith healings” taking place.  The people doing these healings repeating the word fire and making weird noises.  They insisted praying over me for my health issue and the group doing so said the same thing I heard among other groups praying, these groups I later found out were students at IHOP.  I will note that I wasn’t healed.  That aside, you will never find in the Bible where Jesus or anyone else taught spiritual drunkenness, speaking in tongues and maybe getting lucky and finding out what you were saying, not any of that stuff.  Mike Bickle was spoke via the internet, promoting every bit of this.  What really blew me away was Bickle/IHOP people cautioning us when telling brothers & sisters in Christ of what happened there, because it’s not for everyone.  Can you imagine any of Jesus’ disciples saying “there were some great teachings that I can’t tell you about, because it’s not for you.”  That would completely go against Jesus telling us to go and tell all of the nations about Him.  If what the original “Kansas City Prophets,” which Bickle and Jones both were, were so sure that their message was true, wouldn’t they want the world to know just like Jesus did?  The reason I went into this personal experience is because you accused others of going by what someone else said, which they never said it was just something they “heard from someone else” as you claim.  Bob Jones even said that he was wrong about some prophecies.  That alone discounts him being a true prophet of God.  God tells us not to listen to anyone who speaks an untrue prophecy.

    I’ll stop with that much since I’ve typed a good bit.  The reason I am passionate about calling out false teachers is because of my own experience with them, when I went expecting great things, but I left with a sick feeling inside me, a sick feeling that lasted for a couple of days.  It was because I’d been in the presence of truly evil practices.  I thank God for giving me discernment when I was prepared to experience something wonderful.  There are people who might only be exposed to this, and they could live life believing this is true Christianity and possibly never have even been taught what being a Christian truly means.  That was almost the case for some former IHOP workers I’ve gotten to know since, one who said she was defending the movement with the rest of them when others would call it evil.  She noticed that what she was being taught didn’t quite go along with Scripture, and when she told her IHOP superiors, she was told to cut off all ties to the outside world, including her family, because they were most likely influencing her negatively, and that it was her own sin telling her that, so she needed to fast and pray more.  It went on for months, and when she finally got out and eventually made it to church, she said in the decade she was with IHOP, she’d never once been taught the Truth of the Gospel after she learned it at church.  That is why it is very important to call out any false teacher, not just them, it could mean someone’s soul.  I urge everyone to pray for discernment.

  15. Rich Kelley Says:

    “I have a serious question. Do you really believe that prophets and apostles no longer exist?”

    It really doesn’t matter what a person believes concerning the above question. The NAR movement if full of false prophets and apostles.  Being able to figure out they are false should let you know that we would more than likely know a real one should one show up.  Can you name any of the prophets in the New Testament? How about apostles (not the 12 originals), how about any of the other “Offices” that are not really offices but functions withing the body.  Here is a real big hint, if money is involved there is a problem, Gods word is not for sale.  Get a job work with your hands, follow Pauls example.  Remove all the money and see how fast the hirelings leave.  This has nothing to do with a suit and tie either, but everything to do with making the things of Christ and the body of Christ a vocation. (It isn’t)

  16. Jessica Franco Says:

    Way to much to respond to in all your comments, but to the last one, Rich Kelley.  Apostles in the new testament- Paul, Barnabas (Acts 14:4), Adronicus, and Junia (Romans 16:7), Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25). None of these were part of the twelve original apostles, but they are called apostles in Scripture, nonethelesss. Prophets in New Testament- a man named Agabus (Acts 21:10).  Agabus?  Who has every heard of him?  Not many.  I truly doubt that this obscure, unknown man was THE ONLY new testament Holy Spirit filled prophet in the Church after Christ’s ascension and the giving of the Holy Spirit.  In fact, Paul writes to Corinth in 1 Corinthians 14:37, “if anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, then let them acknowledge what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.”  I would assume Paul meant that there were people who believed themselves rightfully to be prophets and gifted by the Spirit, especially since he just finished talking about the spiritual gifts in the preceeding 3 chapters, and they should proclaim that what Paul was writing was indeed from the Spirit.  I would think that if this was true at Corinth, then it was probably true that every city had prophets and people gifted by the Spirit in their circle.

    If money is involved, there is no problem, Rich.  God owns everything.  All the money is his.  If it is in the hands of the members of the kingdom, why should that discount them from service?  Not only that but it is very VERY presumptuous for you to be saying that these people are particularly wealthy.  Do you know anything about their income?  Do you have any idea how they live or what their bank accounts look like?

    And a short thing to John C., You are a perfect example of someone who is simply made uncomfortable and therefore, you discount things you do not understand or experience.  You would have been very VERY UNCOMFORTABLE on the day of Pentecost.  Or maybe you would have been stumbling around like a drunk man in the Spirit like the rest of them:)  “These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!” -Peter, Acts 2:15

  17. Jessica Franco Says:

    And John C., your cult like portrayal of IHOP is so ridiculous only other people afraid of prayer and worship 24/7 would believe it.

  18. Jessica Franco Says:

    John B. sorry, I didn’t even read your comment before.  I am still not sure how I misquoted you.  I really don’t.  Typing out responses to this sort of debate is exhausting and not very useful. Before I said that it was a lie from hell, I said they don’t discourage Bible reading and none of them discourage testing things in Scripture.  You claimed that they discouraged testing things in Scripture. You are still saying that they proclaim to discourage testing things. So I don’t know how I misquoted you.  
    First of all, I have no clue who Brent Engleman is.  He may be a false prophet or not.  I don’t know.  I have never heard of him, nor do I have friends that speak of him, so I don’t feel it necessary to track him down and scrutinize what he is saying.  

    I only read parts of When Heaven Invades Earth, and yes, Bill Johnson is really big on bringing the Kingdom through a living a lifestyle like the New Testament apostles did.  It was crazy and outlandish and people hated them.  Bill Johnson doesn’t seem to mind that anymore.

    I also want to point out that a lot of what you are saying is comparing “testing things in Scripture” vs. approach God with childlike faith and not scrutinize every single thing you experience with a mind that needs to be renewed the Spirit.  In my own experience, my mind says “That’s not possible!” when God performs miracles.  For instance, when I was in El Salvador a couple of summers ago I was in a worship service and a family approached my friend standing next to me with their 3 year old daughter who was deaf since birth. Adorable thing, dark blue frilly dress, hair in pigtails.  I can still see her in my mind. He prayed (which basically went something like “Open up in the name of Jesus.”), and suddenly the little girl’s eyes became huge and she started making these yells of being terrified.  The family pulled her to the side and they started saying her name over and over again and she began to sob.  She could hear.  The family asked us to pray that she would begin to speak, and we did, but then we told them to take her to a doctor who can teach her how to speak because she will need to learn just like any child.  I promise you my mind scrutinized that moment over and over and over again.  Did that really happen?  I was standing right there, and I saw this little girl.  I saw it happen.  And yet, my mind scrutinezed it because it has been trained more by the world than by the Spirit.

      I promise you that your mind that has lived in this realm for however many years is more likely to trust your own senses and your own judgment more than God if you are not continuously seeking God.  It’s the tree of the knowledge of good and evil all over again.  We choose to eat from the tree and trust our own judgement thinking that we are doing right because we are trying to think from God’s perspective.  But the people who encourage you to enjoy God are not discouraging you from knowing him in Scripture.  It is about eating from the tree of Life, who is Christ himself, through communion of the Spirit in the temple of your body, and enjoying him.  Letting your thoughts drift toward him.  Letting him speak to you in different ways.  You don’t have to have a Bible to do that. You don’t have to be able to even read to do that! In fact, a lot of illiterate people still can commune with the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit because of Jesus Christ.  That is enjoying God the Father like a child.  It is not contradictory to testing things in Scripture.  But it also doesn’t mean that all my experience with God has to come straight out of Scripture.  It just can’t be in contradiction to it.

  19. John B Says:

    Jessica, I don’t have a problem if ministers are multimillionaires. What I do have a problem with is if they have become very wealthy by charging people for ministry. It would seem to sit rather uneasily with “Freely you have received, freely give”. God doesn’t sell the Holy Spirit to the highest bidder, we can’t buy our way into the spiritual gifts, we don’t have shopping lists for prophetic visions. So why do people think it’s appropriate to charge others to receive what we have been freely given like this?

    Since you’re not familiar with Brent Engelman there’s little point discussing him further. His is a name that came up for me a while back and when I looked over what he was teaching it appeared sound enough at first but then I noticed things he wrote that I just can’t possibly reconcile with Scripture. Because testing seems like such a basic construct where anything spiritual is concerned I therefore reject anything he teaches that builds on his foundation of not testing.

    Bill Johnson certainly does say a lot about a kingdom lifestyle. Unfortunately he seems to think that we can live in a heavenly utopia in this world, that we can pretty much claim what we want because it’s always God’s will for us to be healed, and so on. This doesn’t sit very easily with Jesus’ call to “take up our cross” (Luk 9:23) and follow him. It doesn’t sit very easily with Paul talking of the thorn in his side that God declined to remove, saying his power was made perfect in weakness (2Co 12:7-10)

    When it comes to testing we need to look for a general principle rather than a precise Scriptural match. You’d struggle to find a word-perfect example in Scripture that precisely matches the situation you described with the three-year-old. But there are examples of Jesus healing, so it’s entirely possible that this was a divine miracle. That doesn’t mean that everything we see is a miracle – it’s easy enough to place a stooge or two in a large audience to hobble forward at the appropriate time only to be “healed” of their ailments. It also doesn’t mean that everything that looks like a healing is divine – I’ve seen a surprising number of “testimonies” of healing that were little more than someone having pains that subsided a bit after prayer. If all that happened was some of the pain went away, was this really a miracle or was it nothing more than the power of suggestion? Without knowing whether the pain stayed away there’s no way of knowing. If the same person was back for the same prayer a week later, it starts to cast doubt that any miracle took place at all.

    I agree entirely that the way to test isn’t to look for a perfect match in Scripture before accepting something. If we did that we would have to assume that Christ’s resurrection never happened, that Pentecost never happened, even that creation never happened. Insisting that God can never do something unless he did the exact same thing previously renders God utterly impotent, which is clearly absurd. What we need to do is understand the nature of God, and test anything presented as being from God against that. God has given us the text of Scripture, and presumably he gave us Scripture for a reason. So God may be “doing a new thing” but unless that new thing can be tested against Scripture it is right to be wary of it. I would not follow a leader who says “God is taking us off the map” unless there was some way to verify what they were saying and where they were leading. When that leader presents a god (small g intentional) I do not recognise I can’t say I’m inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt unless they can satisfy me that they are truly pointing me towards Jesus Christ.

    When a teacher suggests that Jesus Christ the man was not divine but merely a “man in a right relationship with God” it rings major warning bells. If they are leading me towards a man named Jesus who is not the real Jesus, how is that any different to leading me towards a false god?

  20. Rich Kelley Says:

    Jessica Franco, so you don’t misunderstand, those New Testament people you listed and referenced, are people mentioned in passing, they are there, doing what Christ would have the Body do.  In none of the scriptural references do I hear or read of a problem with one of them starting a movement, or asking women to remove clothes before the lord, or making claims that never come to pass, or asking for believers to send in $105.99 for the latest DVD set that sells something, or demand to be called something that refers to an office instead of a function within the body.  You can’t defend what is wrong, and if it is right it will not need to be defended.  You like to reference Paul so pay attention to what He says about being a burden to the people He was witnessing to.  The everything belongs to God is fine rationalization.  I’ll ask, as Christ did, who’s picture is on the money?  Show me the scripture that has the plate being passed after Christ washed feet?  How about the collection after feeding thousands?  The fleshly justification of money is obvious, and the reason it is defended is also clear, without it the hirelings would go somewhere else.  Follow the examples of scripture and you have a chance of hearing well done, but continue to follow these men and women with these “Things” of Christ instead of Christ and well done is not what you will hear.  How is that for Prophetic?  Funny that you should address “Their” wealth, I just said being a Hireling was wrong, they could be poor at it, however I’m not without some time on the earth, so I know if there was no money in what is going on they wouldn’t be doing it.  Test me, stop the money and see what happens.

  21. John C Says:

    Jessica Franco,

    I’d like to know whose standards they are ridiculous according to and what makes it ridiculous?  That is your personal opinion regarding what people (including myself) have experienced.  It boils down to the fact that you have nothing to base the “ridiculous” comment on except your personal opinion.  I don’t say these things to bash them, but because what they’re teaching is dangerous.  Instead of trusting what they say is always fact (or even what I say) pray and ask God for discernment, for Him to show you.

  22. Steve Says:

    I reckon Bob Jones mentle illness continued throughout his “ministry.” Its no secret that his 1st “prophetic” multicoloured visions came to him whilst he was an inpatient in a mentle hospital and much of his later stuff also seems pretty pschitzophrenic to me. Eg his belief that he could travel to heaven at will and did so 3 times every day, 3 foot angels ringing on his doorbell, dissappearing then reapppearing in his living room etc etc.
    He had to step down from ministry in 1994 after admitting he had used his “spiritual gifts” to solicit sexual favours from 2 women in his congregation. As i underrstand it he also told them they had to strip naked before God would allow him to minister to them. He appeared indignant about being disciplined for this at first though because he hadnt actually had full sex with them, which again suggests a disturbed mind to me.
    People suffering from mentle illness can often be more open spiritually to deceptive experiences too. Not that God cant use them but…
    I think the erors in his ministry can be placed at the doors of those who promtoted them as much as or perhaps even more than him therefore. Just shows how completely foolish much of the charismatic movement has become. 
    On the NAR, is it right putting him and other Kansas City prophet types in that bracket? There seems to be roughly two prophetic movements in the USA to me, one now full of error the former KCPs moving in an occult annointing almost continually. They only converge because 3rd party organisiatrions like The Elijah List and God Channel put both on.
    Plus there will be genuine prophecies too, God isnt mute as some cessationists would have us believe, the bible teaching on the spiritual gifts hasnt changed or gone away, it is the same yesterday today andd forever and stands as Gods word. The N/T was being written gradually in gospels and letters over time, it didnt suddenly appear and replace Gods Holy Spirit as some doubters and distorters of those scriptures claim.
    Having said that something like the Elijah List appears to have 100 false prophecies for every genuine one and that will probably be distorted beyond recognition. There was a release of many prophecies at grass roots level in the UK up until about 2007 though, many people were receiving them, warning about the end times. Im not aware of many since then though although there must be some. 
    Disernment of spirits is listed as one of the nine gifts of the Spirit, if the gifts dont exist today then nor does that gift, which of course isnt a rational conclusion to come to.

  23. child of the 1 true king Says:

    I’ve enjoyed reading all the comments on this site and I don’t know anyone that you all are talking about but I have been lucky and been gifted with discernment from my wonderful father and although live a poor life I’ve been more than blessed everyday with the guidance of my lord and savior Jesus but one thing that startled me is when I look at the picture of the man on top of this Web page his eyes are as black as night and does not look like a man I would fallow.I’m gifted with being able to see some ones heart through their eyes its like a vail on their face and his vail is black.I can say that discernment is def a wonderful gift God has guided me my whole life with that gift and although I’ve not known God my whole life in the time I have know him he has truly helped me in ways I never knew was possible and now that I know my amazing father and brother I’m happy no matter what going on in my life cause I only can see the light..and that mana eyes are like demon eyes and yes I don’t know him but God shows me who people really are and to me that’s more important than anything they say or do.

  24. J.Anderson Says:

    Sounds to me like like you guys got to read your bible more and stop making excuses why your so far from the super natural power of God.  Ive eye witnessed many words spoken by Bob as 100% truth.  Ive seen him lay hands on countless people and have seen them healed of many ailments.  If Bob was still alive maybe he could come to your houses and minister to you in DELIVERANCE, cause you need it.  Judge not and you wont be judged, like everyone on this page hasnt done things in there life that they need forgiveness for.  If you don’t have something good to say, zip it.  Oh and I wouldn’t believe half the LIES spoken about Bob on this page for sure.  The “error” is a web site devoted to ripping Christians down, you should be freaking ashamed of yourselves.  Id leave my name and number here, but I don’t want to do what you guys do o these chat pages all day, GO IN CIRCLES.

  25. John C Says:


    You can choose to be blinded from the truth about Bob Jones.  The fact is, not only have some of us posted from our personal experiences, but also we have posted information that you’ll find to be true if you take the time to search.  Bob has claimed to giving false prophecies.  Don’t believe me?  Maybe you should search and find the link where Bob himself said prophecies of his were untrue, as in, didn’t come to pass, said this to Mike Bickle.  Giving false prophecies makes one a false prophet.  Not one prophet in the Bible gave a false prophecy.  Regarding your “judge not” piece of Scripture, no one here disagrees with that.  However, read what the Bible says about false teachers/prophets and you’ll find that we are to call them out, so no, we will not “zip it.”  We are not to add to or take away from the Bible, which is exactly what that does.  Also, think about your own post when you tell others not to judge.  There’s a difference in judging in a sinful way and righteous judgement.  I urge you to test anything you’re told is biblical to the Bible to make sure it’s correct, not just because someone you look up to says it’s true.  Look these things up that we’ve said about Bob instead of being angered by it so you’ll see it’s true.  Pray for discernment.  That is something every Christian needs, so we’re not led astray.

  26. Eugene Bell Says:

    Always just let this one passage out of 1st chronicles and psalms cover any time you have any doubts about  anybody that says they are a minister of any kind, or anybody that is rumored to be a minister of any kind, it goes something like “touch not mine anointed, do my prophets no harm.”  That covers it all.  They all will quote that one out of context anyway if they are ever questioned.

  27. Eugene Bell Says:

    “Touch not mine anointed, do my prophets no harm.”  That says it all.  No matter who says they are somebody, or is rumored to be somebody, just remember that.  Everybody is anointed.

  28. Brent Engelman Says:

    Interesting thread here…

    Bob Jones ministered and failed.  He ministered and saw Jesus do great and mighty things.  I long to be like one who is willing to minister and not be afraid of failure.  The critics are always the same.  Judging from the sidelines, “He should have done this or that.  He shouldn’t have done this or that…”  

    To those who know Christ Jesus and His absolute love, there is no fear.  His perfect love casts out fear. Is their error? (sin)…  I don’t know about you, but I needed and continue to need a savior in Christ Jesus.  I thank God that He sent His Son.

    I see so many lift themselves to a place of judgement and call it “testing.”  Testing is defined as;
    1.  the means by which the presence, quality, or genuineness of anything is determined; a means of trial.
    2.  the trial of the quality of something: to put to the test.

    I see so many “Christians” say “test” it and they fall short because they are unwilling to go through “the trials” themselves.  It’s simple to look at a man from the 50 yard line and say, “He should have zigged instead of zagged”.  The problem is, those comments are NEVER accurate, unless you’ve been on the field or are willing to go on the field now to truly “test” it.  

    So, here’s the deal.  I’m out here, like many, swinging the sword, if you really wanted to help the body of Christ, rather than judge it, or as you say “test” it, get me glass of water when I take a small break from destroying the works of the enemy.

    Here will be the immediate response to my post.  “We are called to test it brother.  You need to read your bible.  The bible says ___________________”.  I KNOW it and more valuable to the Kingdom, I live the Bible so that my life can quote it with power and authority from Christ, who dwells in me, the Hope of Glory!

    PS.  I will not enter into argument or even discussion.  My words here are filled with so much truth it would take you a lifetime to eat all of it.  So chew and chew and chew some more.  However, my name was mentioned in this thread, along with Bob Jone and Bill Johnson.  And to that end, I say, “Thank you.”  I’m honored to even have my name in the same space.  Bob was my “spiritual” grandfather, he ordained my wife and I.  Bill Johnson has been a very great voice in a very epic season.  And I consider him a friend and ally.

    PSS.  The Good News is understated.  It’s “GREAT”.  Beyond Great.  We have no words to describe how great the news is.  If you’re tired of religion and politics (both are spirits) then you can come to the absolute love and knowledge of Christ Jesus today.  He’s waiting for you to be revealed.  If we are going to spend our time talking of dead man (Bob Jones), let us then turn our focus to the one who rose again and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  

    Today, lay down your petty arguments and “discussions”.  Pick up the sword and enter the battle.  We have a Leader who has never failed, He’s not been defeated.  His Lordship is Lord of Lords.  He’s the King of Kings.  The Savior, and your Friend.  He died to get into you.  Let Him in.  Then let Him out upon the world.

    Love you all,
    Brent E. Engelman



  29. Geir Offenberg Says:

    Wow, you christians are horrible, can’t stop accusations and judgement even at the time of passing away of a very beloved person. You ppl have no soul left.Im glad i got out of your horrible evil christianity, im never coming back.

  30. John C Says:

    Brent Engelman – You entered into an argument/discussion when you posted here, so saying that you didn’t come here to do that yet argue your beliefs with those of us you disagree with doesn’t work.  I’m glad you posted though, by posting to us with an arrogant attitude further proves the point that we’re making about Bob Jones and the other “prophets” mentioned here.  It’s that kind of arrogance that helps feed someone’s ego who is so arrogant that they continue to call themselves prophets even after being proven false.  Examples of your arrogance I mention are claiming there’s so much truth in your words that it’d take us a lifetime to eat all of it, telling us to lay down our petty arguments, and so on.

    You seem to believe we don’t know the meaning of testing things we’re taught, and that we aren’t doing anything productive (sitting on the sidelines, as you put it) and it’s pretty easy to figure out it’s only because you don’t agree with us, that being the reason you think we’re wrong.  As for your definition of what testing means, I go by what the Bible says… not the definition that fits someone’s personal beliefs, such as yourself.
    As far as failing as you said Bob did and you admire, I hope you can realize what’s wrong with that, the reason it’s a flawed belief.  The only way to fail when sharing Jesus is to give a message that isn’t biblical.  That is nothing that any Christian should ever want to achieve.  The Bible clearly states we’re not to add to or take away, and if we do it’s sin, plain & simple.  As I stated in an earlier post (and I believe at least one other poster did) Bob even admitted to his false prophecies… do you not see anything wrong with that?  No true prophet in the Bible EVER spoke prophecies that weren’t of God.  It’s very simple, all you have to do is make sure what you’re being taught is in God’s Word, and if not, then we’re to realize it is a lie, not go to someone else and ask what they believe, or just assume it’s truth because of who said it.  Anyone who tells a group of women that God told him to tell them to strip in front of him to receive His message for them is not giving a message from God, it’s blatantly obvious and sad.  Other than the obvious wanting women to get naked in front of him to lust, also claiming to have something for them from God, when God gave us every word we need in the Bible.

    This isn’t about being judgemental, as you said.  It’s about discernment, which God clearly stated He wants us to use it.  The Lord even told us to call out false teachers.  It’s not “petty” when we’re talking about God’s Word vs lies that someone is claiming to be of God, that’s as serious as it gets.  If even one person is introduced to a lie about Jesus and goes to hell because that’s all they ever knew, then that is one person too many.   

    There is a reason that we (and others) are passionate about this, and it’s not to look down are noses at them, but instead it’s because of how important it is to only teach what’s biblical when it comes to sharing Jesus Christ with others, and it truly is sad when someone puts their own twist to it, which can (and does) lead others astray.  I would hope that we can agree on that.  Instead of saying some people are never accurate when testing what we’re taught, tell us what exactly is inaccurate instead of you just making an inaccurate claim.

  31. Donna Judson Says:

    Thank you John C. Thank you so very much. Thank you for truth and discernment. I have removed all teachings of KCP and I no longer watch any television of teachings of men supporting this theology. I am so happy now.  It took guts. Guess what? I don’t feel condemned, controlled, or manipulated anymore. I love my church. I live a simple life. Thank you.

  32. GilPalmBeach Says:

    This is really so simple but those who exalt these false teachers and carefully crafted “signs & wonders” above scripture, should take heed of Jesus’ warning in Matthew 7. Ironically, if not by divine example, everything these groups hold dear are cited by Jesus before he states “I never knew you”.

    Having personally been in the trenches, including cult evangelism, my questions to the name it and claim it crowd remain the same:

    – Why don’t any (one will do) of these guys travel to the world’s hospitals and grow limbs, grant people sight or cure thousands of cancers as they claim we should ALL be able to do – if we only had faith?

    – Why don’t any (one will do) of the modern tongue speaking crowd miraculously and instantly speak in a totally known foreign language like Japanese, French or Russian?  Isn’t that what happened in the Acts 2 passage continuously taken out of context?

    – Lastly, if we are to do “even greater things” than Jesus (another favorite) – and it’s not participating in leading people to eternal life, can you name one “greater thing” any of these guys have done in 2000 years or since around 1903 when this craziness began?

    The gate is narrow and so it will remain.

  33. John B Says:

    Not sure how I missed Brent Engelman’s post for so long, I thought I had notifications set up. Anyway Mr Engelman, although I don’t know if you’ll see this I want to reply even if only for the benefit of others who may read your post and not see the problems inherent within it.

    It’s very disappointing that a man who obviously considers himself fit to lead and teach other Christians is so sneery towards the subject of testing. When Paul applauded the Bereans for “searching the Scriptures daily” to make sure that his teaching was accurate one might hope that any teacher of today would willingly submit to Scriptural testing. It’s not about elevating ourselves to a position of judgement, it’s about obeying what Scripture tells us to do. If we don’t test, how do we avoid the false prophets about whom Jesus Christ warned us? And if someone, like yourself, outright tells us not to test then we might reasonably wonder why they teach the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches.

    Since you had the chance to address that allegation and others it is rather telling that you chose not to do so, apparently preferring to fall back on much bluster and many fine-sounding words that sadly carried little to no actual substance. If, as you claim, you live Scripture can you explain why you teach that visions should not be tested when Scripture tells us to test?

    Your analogy of being “out there, swinging the sword” is actually a good one, although probably not for the reasons you hoped. If your post here is representative of your sword swinging, any time spent getting you a glass of water while you take a break might be better spent in showing you more efficient swordsmanship. You came into the thread, presumably to offer us your thoughts on the topic at hand and failed to address any of the specific allegations levelled at you, apparently preferring to merely insist that you are doing God’s work and we shouldn’t criticise anything you do. Why not spend a few words addressing the specific complaints against your teaching? Since you did not even address my earlier comment that your teachings directly contradict Scripture I struggle to conclude anything other than that this does not trouble you, in which case I would have to wonder whether you are (wittingly or otherwise) swinging your sword in a manner likely to cause more casualties among Christians than the enemy. So to use your own analogy once again, if you are responsible for “friendly fire” casualties by teaching contrary to the Word of God then any time spent fetching you a glass of water would be better spent encouraging you to do less sword swinging.

    Your comment about people who say “he should have zigged but instead he zagged” certainly has some truth in it. However, and this remains a recurring theme throughout your post, you still fail to show how teaching the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches can be regarded as anything but a Very Bad Thing. We’re not talking about an arguably petty disagreement like whether we should take up the offering before or after communion, or whether we should introduce a new style of song into the church, or whether we should combine the prayer group and the Bible study group. We’re talking about whether what we’re doing aligns with Scripture or directly contradicts it. I would never judge a pastor because I personally disagree with the way he arranges his services or his midweek activities. But if that pastor teaches something that directly contradicts Scripture you better believe I’ll call him out on it, as we all should.

    Jesus said that we would know people by their fruit. So let’s look at the fruit you demonstrated in your post. Quite aside from the points I already raised, you claim that a few paragraphs of your words contain enough truth that it would take “a lifetime” to eat all of it. Really? Do you honestly think that a few paragraphs of you avoiding specific issues contain meaningful truth at all, let alone so much of it that I won’t live long enough to process it all? How does that compare to Paul praising the Bereans, for example? Does this look like humble servitude to you?

    I believe I am the only one to have specifically mentioned you here before you posted, so I will accept your thankfulness for me doing so. I personally wouldn’t want to be associated with the rather curious “prophecies” of the late Mr Jones but since you do I will honor your wishes, and hope future readers will do likewise and draw their own conclusions.

    Your call to lay down petty arguments is also perfectly sound, but I’m surprised that you consider the matter of testing prophecies (Scripture explicitly tells us to do this, as I may have mentioned once or twice already) to count as a “petty argument”.

    It is something of a shame that you so boldly announced that you would not even enter into discussion. This is most unbecoming of someone who considers himself fit to teach and lead – how does one hone teaching, or further explain teaching, without entering into some form of discussion? If one of your students were to ask you a specific question about your teaching (whether they sought clarification of just what you said, or because they were concerned about whether it aligned with Scripture) would you brush them off with a haughty “I’m not discussing it” and merely expect them to blindly accept your words as absolute truth? I would just refer back to Paul’s praising of the Bereans for testing his teachings against the eternal truth of Scripture, and wonder why you seem to dislike your teachings being tested.

    I don’t expect you to reply, but would be pleasantly surprised if you were to choose to do so and address some of the issues I raised with your teachings. The reasons I don’t expect a reply are twofold: firstly because it is now several months since you posted and, like most of us, you probably have more pressing concerns than this blog and secondly because you posted while also announcing you had no intention of discussing.

  34. Ms. Patin Says:

    Great article except Holly’s “opinion” in the last paragraph. I have few questions. Are you a believer in Jesus Christ? If so, is it our place as a believer to judge and slander one another? If your not, then I understand your position and I’m sorry you feel this way. Christians are human too and we make mistakes and are thankful for Jesus coming to save us and help us make things right and He forgives us. If you are a believer, did you go and talk about your concern with Bob regarding this situation?  Did you pray about this situation? 
      I guess I don’t understand why people slander people who have pasted on. Would you Holly, and the haters on this blog, like it if we posted your sins on social media? Slandering someone is not a Godly trait, and posting it on social media is wrong. Sin is sin in Gods eyes, we all have it, that’s why I’m so thankful for Jesus. 
    As believers we are to love one another and if we are struggling with an issue or a person its best to take it to prayer not social media. Do you know for a fact the situation of is true?  Even IF it did happened do you know if Bob asked God, and the woman to whom your referencing to, for forgiveness? Is it our place as believers, to judge anyone? No, we are to take it to the Lord and if you have ott in your heart against someone you are to go speak to them about your concern.
    Posting slanderous comments only make Christians look like back biters and gossips, neither traits are Godly. 
    You have a right to feel the way you do its your choice. if you are. If you confess to be a Christian, blogs like this only makes Christians look like the world. If your not a believer then it’s understandable why you post such an article. We as believers need to quit hating on people, pray about the situation and let Jesus take care of the rest. He is our hope!

  35. John Says:

    Ms Patin, do you know what the term “slander” means? If you want to argue that the allegation that Bob Jones was removed from office for sexual misconduct is factually incorrect go right ahead with sources. Otherwise Holly’s comment there is truthful and therefore not slanderous.

    Nobody is saying we aren’t all sinners. But people who commit sexual misconduct while in a ministerial office need to be removed from that office. The Bible gives us guidelines regarding the qualities of an elder, of a bishop, not to mention general guidelines for how we should live.

    Whether Bob asked God for forgiveness or asked the women in question for forgiveness isn’t really the issue here. If he asked God for forgiveness and truly repented we can be sure that God forgave him. If he asked the women concerned for forgiveness they may or may not have forgiven him. Either way he shouldn’t be in a ministerial position where he would have cause to be alone with women, for his protection as much as for theirs. It’s really no different to a minister who embezzled collection money – the church and the congregation may forgive him for his sin but that doesn’t mean they would immediately put him in charge of counting the offering.

    The Bible also tells us to identify and avoid those who promote false teachings. How do we do that without naming them? Paul named Alexander the coppersmith as one who did him great harm. Was Paul slandering the coppersmith?

    With respect you really need to learn what the word “hating” actually means. We can disapprove of someone’s teaching, we can correct their teaching publicly (as indeed Paul did to Peter), all without hating them. I know it’s trendy to use terms like “hater” to try and silence discussion but that helps nobody except the false teachers. If someone doesn’t want their teaching tested against Scripture they shouldn’t be teaching at all.

  36. Kay Says:

    you guys spend too much tearing up the body rather than building up the body.
    even if you all have the truth(which I am sorry no one does as we know in part), have all the knowledge, and all prophecy, I don’t see any love here, within the body. 
    one false prophecy doesn’t mean he or she is a false prophet. That’s why are to test them.
    as a fellow sister I’m only blown away by the pride here.

    have you guys prayed for one another for a corporate discernment in truth and in love then? Instead of talking and trashing one another? honestly tell me, how much time you spent confessing our lack of knowledge and wisdom and pride while praying for one another? Is the prayer of the righteous more powerful or the talking of the righteous(while being under flesh and emotions?)
    and I yes i agree we are to follow the spirit and it does NOT contradict with our obedience to the word, our Lord is word made flesh and he is also the life-giving spirit, as said in the Word.

    i suggest you all go read Andrew Murray’s humility.
    grace to you all in Christ. Also a fellow believe hoping to mature in truth and in love.

  37. Cc Says:

    @Kay, John and some of the other commenters are not acting out of hate” or pride. They are rebuking wrongdoing and false beliefs which can seriously harm the body of Christ (as well as non Christians). It’s obvious from the Bible that God takes that very seriously and we are sinning if we don’t as well. Rebuking wrong IS love and some people (according to the degree of their own arrogance/stubbornness) need to be dealt with a bit more firmly in the right measure.

    According to your definition of love and hate, Jesus was hateful and had no love when he chased the money changers from the temple, or when he called the Pharisees “Hypocrites”, “Vipers”, or “scorpions”. What about when he called some of them sons of the devil, or told Peter, his own diciple, “Get behind me Satan”. Not to be harsh, but it’s you who are projecting your own pride onto others here. You are saying you are the only one who has any love here. Ive read all of the comments here, and the only ones acting somewhat hateful and arrogant (and showing little self control with their emotions) are the ones defending Bob Jones and these other false prophets, which shows to me that it’s those types of people who are usually attracted to these type of movements. Discerning would force them to have to grow and mature too much and they aren’t ready for that. Please don’t accuse fellow Christians of not having love when they are simply using straight talk (not sugar coating the truth), are trying to get someone to see an error in their thinking or are calling out an arrogant attitude. That doesn’t mean they are “acting from the flesh” They also very well may be praying for them..you don’t know that they haven’t. For someone to add add “I’ll pray for you” at then end of a comment would be taken as insincere and sarcastic anyway.

    Ino response to some of the other comments, I want to say that getting off track, backsliding, or “making some mistakes” as a Christian are very different from someone calling themself a “Prophet/spokesperson” of God, literally telling women that God wants them to undress in front of this “Prophet of God” in order to hear from the Creator of the universe! This either shows a very calculating person (possibly a narcissist or sociopath) who is using God’s name to do some pretty corrupt things, or he may have had a mental illness… because, what woman (Christian or non Christian) would fall for something like that?? Or Maybe he knew he had a congregation that was so off base, so vulnerable and gullible because they were taught to not discern that he felt he could get away with it. Either way, it showed an extremely serious character or mental defect that was way bigger than a few “mistakes”.

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