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The Big Lie: ‘Normal’ Christianity

Recently, a pastor I know received a provocative Christmas gift from a man in his church. It is a book titled Normal Christianity, written by prophet Jonathan Welton–a leader in the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) movement.

The message of Welton’s book is that the “normal” Christian lifestyle should be characterized by the performance of miracles: walking on water, calming storms, and even raising the dead.

Yet–contrary to the book’s title–Welton’s version of Christianity is anything but normal. Beyond promoting the supernatural phenomena we see in Scripture, he also argues that every Christian should develop magical powers that historically have been practiced by psychics, witches, and occultists.

The end result is that “normal” Christianity turns out to be an unholy marriage between Christianity and the occult.

 

Gifts of the Spirit?

Welton claims that all Christians should be reclaiming the following practices from the occult as part of their normal Christian walk.

  • Reading auras: The ability to see invisible energy that surrounds a person and learning information about that person based on the color or form of his or her aura
  • Clairvoyance: The ability to perceive extrasensory information about an object or event from the past, present, or future
  • Clairaudience: The ability to hear sounds, music, and voices sent from the spirit realm
  • Clairsentience: The ability to sense smells sent from the spirit realm, along with tastes and touches
  • The use of power objects: Physical objects, such as crystals and amulets, that contain supernatural powers

Welton’s Misuse of Scripture

Jon Welton

Welton attempts to offer biblical support for these practices. Yet, the few verses he cites do not support the practices. For example, to support clairsentience–that is, sensing smells from the spirit realm–he cites 2 Corinthians 2:14:

“But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of Him.”

It is painfully obvious that the apostle Paul is not speaking, in this verse, of a real fragrance. Rather, Paul uses the image of a fragrance to convey an idea: that idea being that God uses Christians to spread knowledge about Him wherever they go.

Yet, Welton misuses this verse to defend his claim that a sweet scent like perfume–sent from heaven–magically appears in many of his meetings.

Well, maybe Welton has smelled something sweet in his meetings. But his interpretation of Scripture stinks.

Shockingly Shameless

Welton doesn’t see himself as introducing occult practices in the church. On the contrary, he sees himself as a “rogue theologian” who is reclaiming practices that New Agers and occultists stole from Christianity in the first place (Normal Christianity, page 202).

Now that’s brazen!

Welton’s unabashed attempt to bring occult practices to the church reminds me of the man and woman who were openly practicing incest in the Corinthian church (1 Corinthians 5:1-13). The apostle Paul was shocked that they would be so shameless–even boasting about–engaging in such a blatant form of sexual immorality.

Jonathan Welton is not only seeking to bring occult practices to the church, but he is also audacious enough to claim that these practices represent “normal” Christianity. And, unfortunately, his is not a lone voice. A growing number of NAR apostles and prophets have begun openly pushing occult practices.

The Big Lie

Welton’s teachings may sound absurd. But that doesn’t mean people won’t believe them. Hitler had an infamous propaganda technique, known as the “Big Lie”–that is, if you tell a lie that is big enough then eventually people will believe it. Why? Because no one will believe that you would actually make up something so crazy.

And, sadly, Welton’s message has already convinced people–which can be seen by the fact that my pastor friend received a copy of his book.

So, what do you think the normal Christian life should look like?

 

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93 Responses to “The Big Lie: ‘Normal’ Christianity”

  1. mark Says:

    Jerry, he posted it on his facebook timeline. He actually said he had two angels. I would look back about 6 months. This is something that he posted himself.

    As far as miracles and thupernatural this is biblically based. My issue with him is the way he treats people and his preterism which he pushes very hard to the point that he is causing much division in the body. And while he appears to be anti establishment he simple is not more knowledgable than the average Christiian who read their bible.

  2. Gerry Says:

    JW seems very anointed in some things yet when I hear him teach a new version of end times prophecy alarm bells go off… he takes a very different slant on the mark of the beast for example and this could mislead Christians into receiving the microchip as they will think it is no longer poses a threat ..
    This i feel is morally wrong …especially at a time when it is becoming more and more likely people will be expected to take one ..

  3. Tracy Guichard Says:

    1 Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of word but power.  
    1 cor 2:4 My My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power
    1 the 1:5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power,

    If you are not walking in the power of the Holy Spirit then you are NOT preaching the Gospel.. Clearly Jonathan is walking in the Power and Spirit of God.. I am hearing a lot of WORDS from your little blog here… 

    Clearly you have not met the Holy Spirit.. because if you have you will know he comes with POWER and he reveals himself. 

    Mister Holy Spirit is the same one that created the earth and parted the sea.. same one in Jesus and the Apostles.. guess what same Spirit that is in me.  He has not changed from the beginning to now.  

  4. mark scott Says:

    Healings and miracles are part of the Spirit filled experience. Raising the dead very seldom happens and usually the claims are hyped.
    If a person has a very advanced disease it may take many. many hours of prayer to have enough anointing to get the job done. The primary reason for healing is covenant both in the old and new testaments.
    I agree in most part that healing and deliverance are part of the normal experience with Mr. Welton but I have been to his conferences, seen him operate with people. It is not my normal Christian experience to put him down. I believe that his non belief in eternal hell and his preterism, the way he treats and degrades people to be more concern than whether he believes i miracles. I know of other very disturbing things that would not allow me to follow this man as a teacher.

  5. christopher Says:

    yes I am very much torn between his teachings and the more mainstream teachings about the Beast and the AntiChrist which I heard before – and still agree with to one extent or another. Although I can see the logic of it in a way – if we as Christians through faithful prayer have the right to take authority over demons – that would mean that logically speaking there could not be a terrible, evil time while Christians are still in the earth. That leads to the idea of the Rapture, which I always found a little bit hard to believe and rather thin on evidence, biblically. I think my secret worry is that in trying to take authority over all the cultural elements of the world, Christians will get misled into a kind of new age religion, where “all roads lead to Rome”

  6. Tracy Guichard Says:

    Did you read Jonathan’s Raptureless free book? I suggest you read that. Might help clear some things. Also Jesus stated we would do greater things than him. At the moment we can’t even do what he did while he walked the earth. Pretty sad.

  7. christopher Says:

    yes thanks for your reply Tracy – I am in the process of uncovering many of these things but I have seen too many things and too many kinds of different teachings to make my mind up all of a sudden. Partly I have reservations in general – partly because I feel that Jonathan Welton has become rather a personality cult person and this always leads to alarm bells for me. It reminds me a little of people like Kenneth Copeland in the 80s – so I guess I have some prejudice to overcome. But I am also more legitimately concerned because he seems to have people who are very ‘loyal’ to him and his teachings – and he has named his Academy after him – it has his name. There is nothing really ‘wrong’ with this in principle I would feel uncomfortable if my pastor named his church after him. I am a bit concerned with this because I believe we need to be on guard against people who promote themselves and their own name – there is a spirit behind this which tends to demand loyalty from people – but at the same time I agree with you on this issue you mentioned.

  8. Tracy Guichard Says:

    I so understand where you are coming from. I actually no longer follow Jonathan because he is big on this 5 fold ministry and holding different offices. I believe we all have the fullness of Christ inside of us and we all hold the 5 fold ministry inside of us like Jesus. I do not think another person has more authority. Anyway a super easy teaching I just listen to last week really cleared up a lot of this Pentecostal stuff I was struggling with. The speaker is Chris Blackeby and he only has one message. I wanted to get more of his stuff and you cannot find him. I suggest listening to his video on Youtube.

    I am Charismatic but not a fan of this works based who heard God better competing mentality. I find that the Holy Spirit will lead me to different teaches from different Pastors then I move on. I got Preterist from Jonathan, Got a great Elections series from John Crowder, I like the Grace preaching from Joseph Prince, I love Bill Johnson’s wisdom into scripture.

    Yesterday I listen to I think a buddha teaching not sure but this woman was talking about speaking to the water so it would not flood her home. It was inspiring. Jesus spoke to the water and said Peace and the waves stopped. So as a Charismatic I am looking for teachings on how to help the earth. As Kings and Priest of God we have authority to rule the earth. Thinking we can do a better job. So I want to tap into the Spiritual prayer realm to help her. Have you looked into anything like that?

    What I hate more than anything is this Judgement teaching, Sin focus, we are better because we know Christ rub in your face stuff.

    So I lean towards Full Preterist, Charismatic, Universalist so with this kind of thinking I have few friends in the Religion circle. Where do you lean? I do not hold my doctrine tightly as that does not Help Holy Spirit teach me new things.

  9. christopher Says:

    yes Tracy thanks –
    I feel to say that I sense a kind of “pressure” to ‘jump on the bandwagon’ very often – when a great new teacher (and he is a great new teacher) comes along – there is a fairly subtle kind of pressure to join in. And then everyone starts becoming polarized – they are suddenly “for’ him or “against” him – citing maybe just one of the many things he has said or written.
    When I feel this pressure I try to resist it and just relax – I am not going to “miss out” on anything, after all. I think much of the debate around Jonathan Welton has focused on him challenging us into a Holy-Spirit empowered walk with the Lord – with signs and wonders following. Of course we should be doing miraculous things just as Jesus did – if we really are his followers. But I feel I need to hold back until I am sure. I feel I need to rest rather than risk hyping myself up in the flesh – take things gently. Its enough for me to pray with someone who has a bad ankle in the supermarket. I am not really looking for fireworks right now

  10. mark scott Says:

    Full preterism is not only non biblical, anti Charismatic and it not factual. Universalism is strongly condemned in almost all Christian circles and is demonic. Why did Jesus die if salvation was not the result of Jesus work on the cross. You cannot be Charismatic and be a universalist. You cannot be a Baptist and be a universalist. In fact even Calvinists and full and partial preterists would confront you. What you are doing is gleaming all the bad fruit and making a salad of false doctrine. What you need to do is repent Tracy because these are Christian believes.

  11. mark scott Says:

    correction are not Christian beliefs

  12. Tracy Guichard Says:

    BREATH… PEACE… Wow Mr Mark Scott. Everything that I believe is 100% backed up by the Bible. I know that thing inside out. More than most. So if you think I am half ass coming up with this stuff you are wrong. The Pharisees in their day had the Bible memorized and yet they could not recognize the Messiah standing right in front of them. They thought they understood the bible but they had NO Idea what the father was really like. Hence one of the reasons Jesus came to reveal the nature of the father. What the heart is full of comes out of the mouth. I find what the heart is full of is what you see in the Bible. Hence we have so many wars in the Name of the bible. Lucky for me I happen to see the LOVE of God and that is what I see in the Bible. If the fruit of the spirit when you are reading the Bible is Judgement or Pride then you are not understanding the passage correctly and need to adjust. If your theology causes you to be judgemental and Prideful.. Guess what it is wrong. Do you actually know the rules of the New Covenant? Start in Hebrews 8 and read on. No more teachers and guess what NO MORE JUDGEMENT God chooses to forget and forgive all our sins. I don’t even think he ask us to confess them. How can I repent when God chooses to forget anything bad I do?? Mercy and Grace is the New Kingdom of God.

  13. Tracy Guichard Says:

    I am lucky I beat to my own drum and do not care what others think. Hence my diverse beliefs. I tried the whole Normal Christianity and it is not me. I went to South America and practiced. I found it draws to much attention to the person and not the glory of God. One of my favorite Christian friends is into the Normal Christianity and it so suits her. I encourage her as I do think that is her calling. Not me. I am more quiet and don’t like to draw attention to what I can and cannot do in the Spirit. With every teacher you will find millions of critics. So I do not bother to read the critics. I think Jonathan is an amazing teacher and wish the best for him. I am just not into the 5 fold ministry nor any kind of ranking system. When he moves away from that and starts teaching something else I might listen again. Actually I am curious to why he is not Full Preterist. I do know one reason and it is the verse about Jesus ascending into heaven and the Angels said he will come back in the same way. Guess what only at most 20 people saw him ascend and they were all his super close friends. It was not a world wide event. Only believers saw it. So not sure why we think it will be world wide him coming down from the sky. He comes to those who are his own and believe. We have Lots of testimonies of people seeing Jesus descend from heaven and walk in their rooms. Anyway just rattling again. Stay teachable, open and if a doctrine produces a wrong fruit inside of you. Question it.
    May you walk in the Glory of Jesus. May God’s light radiate from your being so all can see that you are a child of God. Amen

  14. michael king Says:

    Welton is hooking several people I know and something else these false teachers do is promote preterm to help explain things like not following Jesus commands and saying that the Lord’s Prayer is vain repetition and not for Christians today. Essentially they try to screw up biblical eschatology in order to make their movement seem reasonable in their attempts to take over the world for Jesus. They believe God needs us to do these things. God is the Almighty He does not need us….We need Him.

  15. michael king Says:
  16. Tracy Guichard Says:

    As much as I hate being the odd man out but after 4 years of fighting the Preterist concept I am now a happy Preterist. Were once I had fear and was judging all mankind now I have more patience and kindness. Were once the scriptures jumped all over the place and things just did not make sense. Now it is so clear and easy to understand. Do not judge a doctrine until you fully study it. I am currently studying verse by verse in all of Daniel and Revelations on the Futurist view. The teacher is imposing more assumptions than facts. Weak interpretations and frankly stretching the scripture to mean things you can clearly define with other scripture. In the futurist view Satan wins more souls than God. God’s plan for salvation was not good enough. He manage to get a few to himself. But satan’s plan for Adam fall was brilliant and he won the planet and all of God’s creation. Everyone fell under Adam.. But only a very small few won under Jesus redemption plan. HMMMM… Think people… What you preach and what you totally believe. Once you figure out what you believe you will be ashamed. Think.. under Adam all fell but under the greater gift Jesus only a few are saved. No choice under Adam.. But we have a choice under Jesus??? sounds a little fishy to me. Sounds like a demonic theory.

  17. mark scott Says:

    I wish I had more time to reeducate you on basic biblical concepts. Since if is obvious that you are not willing to change or listen I am not able to help you Tracy.

  18. Jan Lamprecht Says:

    Tracy. I have friends that have turned preterist after listening to Welton. Some block you when you have questions because they now somehow know everything and some turned universalist because everything had already been fulfilled. I usually ask one question. Do you believe we are waiting for the resurrection of the dead as noted in the creeds? Because the church fathers believed it to be future.

  19. Tracy Guichard Says:

    Correct there is nothing that will change my mind.

    Two ways we will know the truth. In about another 500 years when the church has run out of timelines that fit their belief system they might take a second look and realize they were wrong. Or when we pass and are in heaven we will laugh at what we got correct or wrong on our interpretations.

    I am currently sitting through a futurist theology class going through line by line of Daniel then Revelations and I can point out a million flaws. I am sitting through probably 20 hours of class on a theology I view as completely wrong, But I will listen just to see if I missed something.

    I bet we cannot say the same about you. Have you ever listen to 20 hours of a Preterist view point? I bet not.. I will continue live my life in the Love of God with his many blessings and follow his principles of non judgement. With the knowledge and identity I am fully loved just as I am. Eating from the tree of life. You can continue to eat from the tree of Good and Evil and judge everything. I am sure life is extremely worrisome eating from that tree day in and out.

  20. christopher Says:

    Yes Tracy thanks
    I am drawn towards your position too because I find it intrinsically attractive, and can also see there are many things which make sense of scripture. But I cant help being troubled too. It seems to me that a great many things in the Book of Revelation must be referring to future events, because it is so implausible that they have occurred already. For example, a major problem for me is the reference to an army of “10,000 times 10,000…I heard their number”
    this gives a figure of 100 million. Well, there was never an army in the ancient world that even began to approach this figure – I don’t know the size of the armies of the ancient world but I do know that the whole world’s population couldn’t have been a lot more than this – and that probably the armies of the ancient world never numbered more than 100,000 – so we are out by a factor of about 1000! that is a lot!
    I understand that Preterists say that the reference to 10,000 x 10,000 is just a way of saying a ‘huge’ army – but I don’t find this a very satisfying explanation – it seems plain to me that the only time in the history of the world when this figure of 100 million could plausibly be reached is today

  21. Tracy Guichard Says:

    I am just like your friends.. Lean towards Universalism. My view of Hell is not the standard view. More a refinement fire were God never gives up on you. Eternal correction. Also Hell is what you create in your mind. For example you feel very strong about judgement and hell. When you stand before the Lord you will have those feelings of Judgement. Then God will show YOU your actions.. Then you will know you are condemned. As you Judge you will be Judge. So you will put yourself in your own punishment hell. Unless you actually truly believe Jesus paid for your penalty. Which frankly most christians don’t 100% believe they are totally forgiven so they keep punishing themselves.

    I only care what the Holy Spirit shows me. I do not care what someone believed a long time ago. I put my weight in the Holy Spirit inside guiding me into all truths. You recall the scripture Jesus said that you need no man to teach you as the Holy Spirit will show you all things? You know the New Covenant we are under were we need No MAN…

    People who follow man or religion miss the boat. Let the Spirit guide you into all truths.

    Look at manmade tradition religion what has it gained them? War, self righteousness, pride. I rarely see the fruit of the Spirit come out of organized religion. Yes there are a few but most of them do not attend church.

  22. Tracy Guichard Says:

    When Elijah was surrounded by armies and his buddy was in panic mode then Elijah had his eyes open and they had thousands of angel soldiers surrounding them in protection. There was a HUGE Spiritual army and they stuck the man army blind. Think on those lines.

    I agree with the scholars that typically the number 10 refers to (a lot) or a huge number. You can research the number and all the places used and you will see that. I am surprised you are caught up on that little detail. I am caught up on the fact that this is the new heaven and earth. For me it is easy as I am blessed like Abraham. Everything I touch turns to gold. I am so blessed and always have been. So I kind of understand the Kingdom of God and it’s principles. I struggle with other believers who are not blessed and struggle with so many things. I cannot get my head around it. Why I walk in all that God offers but most do not?? What is so different about my faith. They say the right thing do the right thing but still fail?? When I pray considered it done it happens.

    What the Preterist view does is gives me more confidence when standing up to Satan. I know his power is stripped and he can’t do anything to me. So I knock him down. He is not allowed to mess with my family. All other believers think he rules so they put up with him and give him power. Not me.

    You can ask my husband I walk in true peace. I never worry. I am always at rest.

  23. mark scott Says:

    Tracy, stop returning comments to me. I am not interested in this anymore.

  24. Jan H. Lamprecht Says:

    My pastor and friend Bertie Brits posted this yesterday. Maybe it is of help to someone else.

    My view of what preterism concludes… (I know that there are different branches of preterism)
    If you are a full preterits you have to believe that there will not be a physical resurrection of the dead, neither do you believe that Jesus conquered physical death. You also have to believe that physical death is no enemy of humans and that God designed death to be part of creation from the beginning.
    Preterism declares that God honored the Levitical priesthood for 30 years after the death of Jesus, that the law did not end in it being nailed to the cross but ended in the destruction of Jerusalem. In preterism according to Don Preston, Jesus was involved in a dual priesthood where the believing Jews were still to obey the law until the law was ended in 70 AD. As a Preterist You have to believe that Titus that lead the Roman armies was the incarnate Jesus and his soldiers, the Angels of God.
    As a full Preterist to the future, you have to believe that misery and destruction will be on the earth forever, that men will be born and die here forever and so move on into a state where you will be with God after death. That winning the lost will never end and that what you see today is about as good as what it gets.

  25. Tracy Guichard Says:

    In the perfect garden of Eden.. Who was sitting near Adam and Eve? Satan.. evil looks like he will always be here. End of Rev it states outside the city are the bad people. Looks like they are still around. Also states in Rev that there are healing leaves for the nation each month. Why would we need healing leaves for the Nation in a perfect garden??

  26. mark scott Says:

    This was an excellant comment and I really appreciate the feedback. What you are saying is that Preterism is not optimistic as they claim.

  27. Tracy Guichard Says:

    As a Full Preterist that is not what I believe. I believe the world is going to get better and better. I believe we will live longer and longer. I believe there is a future for my son. I believe lots of new things will be created and improve our standard of living just like they have been in these last 2000 years. I believe as Jesus continues to make all things new that we will no longer have wars. As Jesus is putting everything under his feet one day it will be as the Lord’s Prayer. ON EARTH AS IN HEAVEN. That will happen as the true believers continue to make earth a better place to live. Instead of the church running and hiding waiting for it to be destroyed.

    I think the futurist not yet but wait doctrine is demonic. You all are waiting for the fullness of your inheritance. You all are not entering in the promise land. You all are not overtaking the giants of the land that God has given over to us? Why do you think we have those stories?? God gave them the land of milk and honey. Left out all the wars they have to overtake it. SEE… Jesus concord the earth for us. Now we have to take it over. Little work on our part. Called Faith… believe.. trust..

  28. christopher Says:

    I have this issue with Jonathan Welton – and the issue is a kind of personality cult thing going on – a kind of loyalty thing which is really what troubles me. I don’t think he really pushes it – but I see the people who follow him getting caught up with it and it worries me. And having said that he doesn’t push it – I think that he does a bit too, maybe not deliberately but to the point where it makes me feel uncomfortable. For example, he calls himself a rebel and a maverick – at least I think he does. I feel this is a kind of inverted narcissism and I feel he plays on projecting himself like this. If this isn’t true, then my bad – but I am not encouraged by him calling his teaching school after himself. I am uncomfortable with it
    giving themselves a little ‘coat of arms’ which sort of adds to the self-aggrandizement trip – the people of the tower of babel said : “lets make a name for ourselves” – my point is really that he should be aware there is a bit of a personality cult thing going on but he seems to be playing up to it rather than trying to play it down.

  29. mark scott Says:

    Jesus said be careful of what you hear. This thread has been going on for over 3 years. I am tired of it. Mr. Welton will be responsible for his teachings. The real issue is very simple people who follow this stuff without hesitation because it appears to be hip. A lot of this is just flat earth thinking.

  30. Mike Says:

    Mark, you may want to consider turning off comments to this post as you speak as though you are tiring of people finding this article and finding it odd how so many Christians are following false teachers. But I would ask you to consider not doing that for the edification of those that are just now or in the mear future may be lead to this article wondering similar things the Holy Spirit laid upon your heart to write this article. We are hear to reach the lost and help our bretheren. If perhaps you are just subscribed to this page and have grown weary of the conversation may I suggest you unsubscribe. That would be helpful for you. Be blessed in Jesus my brother.

  31. Tracy Guichard Says:

    Love how the people who love their judgement are so hostile. They love to say “HE WILL BE JUDGED!” God will punished him for his teachings.. I wonder if he is punishing all the Catholic, Mormons, Jews, Baptist, Pentecostal, and Jehovah witness? Or is he having mercy on us all 🙂 Sounds like not many people going to make it to heaven. God’s plan failed 🙁 thats a depressing doctrine.

  32. Holly Says:

    Tracy,

    I edited your most recent comment to remove personal attacks on other posters (i.e., Mark). Furthermore, I will not approve any more of your comments that promote full preterism or universalism, as those are heretical teachings and I don’t want my blog used to promote heresy.

    Holly

  33. Mike Says:

    The way is narrow Tracey. Few will be saved. God’s plan will not fail based upon the number of souls that remain lost. But for those that are born of the Spirit and are in Jesus we are sons and will ever be with Jesus. You cannot base the success ofGod’s plan for salvation on whether all are saved or not. I believe you do not know or believe the gospel from yourwords but I pray God will move your heart towards turning from lies and believing truth.

  34. Garth Allen Says:

    I really liked Jonathan Welton’s book however I really like many
    Christian books, God has not changed He is the same all the time the five fold ministry is still in effect “until we all come to the unity of the faith” that obviously has not happened, and one commentor said that God does not need us maybe He does not need us however He told us to go and preach the gospel, we are to be witnesses for Him and preach the gospel, the miracles the signs and wonders the gifts and the fruit of the spirit is to bring people to Jesus Christ, I try to come against sensationalism and self aggredizement however we must always remember God is supernatural and we dont want to believe Him and deny the power, miracles and gifts as I stated are to draw people to Jesus Christ and be saved, our adversary laughs when we are so divided the body has many parts with many functions but I thank God for the attempts at correction nad sound doctrine but we must also remember we are co heirs with Jesus Christ…. Peace of God

  35. Tracy Guichard Says:

    Have you ever pondered. This “SAVE US” save us from what? God? So Jesus who is God is saving us from him? This question is what lead me to learn about 70 AD.. I hence learned this SAVE thing Jesus was talking about was the saving the Jews from the coming destruction on the Temple. The more I research unemotionally the more I see what the man traditional church is teaching seems to be wrong. Why did the church go silent after 70AD? Was there task done? What happen to the people that Peter, Paul, John and all the other apostles taught. What happen to them? Did they know that it was done. Jesus has reconcile the world back to God and now we are dealing with clean up. When will we learn that satan has been defeated and stop giving him power? When will we learn who we are and what we are in walk in the fullness of Christ? One Day we will..

    As far as God destroying the world.. That he created and said was good. I doubt that is the plan.. Look closer at scripture.. leave emotion behind and read the facts..

    Jesus said I come quickly.. how many times.. and what does quickly mean? Look it up. It means SOON in there day..

  36. mark scott Says:

    The miracles that occurred by Jesus confirmed his preaching or the Word. The actual word Lets read the scripture back Garth. He gave…
    for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ till we all come to the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect man to the measure of the fullness of Christ that we should no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the trickery of men in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting . on and on. The purpose of the five fold ministries according to the bible was to mature believers not to show sensational signs. The unity of faith already occurred.

  37. Tracy Guichard Says:

    1 Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.

    Jesus said if you do not believe what I say then at least believe the signs so that you know I been sent by the father.

    Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    I like you do not like all that showy stuff in the church. Frankly I will not go.. I hate when people shout out when the Pastor is preaching. BUT we have to remember did not all the disciples of Jesus fight on who was the greatest among them. Did not they show off in front of each other and argue? Well it seems the same thing today is happening in our churches.. We still like to show off who is more anointed or who can hear the Lord more clearly. Who got the latest revelation. man being man..

    Good News in the new covenant God says he will teach his people. The Spirit will teach us all things. So if you do not like going to church on Sunday guess what. You do not have to go. If you do not like the local pastor. Then go hang with your friends and family on Sunday instead. Go enjoy God’s creating. No need to attend church as the Spirit is with you and will teach you stuff using nature and whatever he finds.

  38. Mike Says:

    Tracy Guichard,
    You are deep in error. Do you know what the gospel is? If so I would ask you to tell me in a concise manner.
    Mike King

  39. Mike Says:

    People that follow Jonathon Welton and believe him become confused and fall away from the faith…..often.

  40. Tracy Guichard Says:

    And what proof do you have of that? People fall from the faith? Could it be that Jonathan Welton is doing EXACTLY what Jesus ordered the Apostle to do? Build up the faith and move on. To be dependant on a man or church is not the desire of Jesus. We are to be dependant on him. We are to learn from the Holy Spirit. So in my opinion a church that makes you dependant on them is not from God. Paul baptized the Centorian jail guard and left. He did not say now go to church every Sunday, He left knowing that the man was in good hands as he was filled with the Holy Spirit. Clearly he trust the Spirit. Who do you trust more? Holy Spirit or Man most likely unanointed nor called from Jesus?

  41. Tracy Guichard Says:

    Gospel means “Good News” What I find so amusing is how Religious folks get so uptight if a believer does not attend a regular church weekly, If that person does not tithe, nor (hmm lets make up a law) they eat pig. With their weak faith they become angry.. (not a fruit of the Spirit) They start accusing how mislead and deceived that person is. Clearly the Devil is more powerful than their God. You know their God whom they believe lives inside of them. They FEAR deception what spirit produces that fruit?

    Nothing irritates a traditional religion person than another person who fully understands we have been saved by GRACE and nothing I do will save me but faith in Jesus Christ. No good works, no tithing, no going to church weekly.

    Oh and I fully understand I DO NOT SAVE OTHERS. This Jesus saves.. So I do not think I need to even try and save you. For I trust that Jesus will do that.

    Judge Not as you Judge you will be Judged. It must be so tiresome trying to save everyone and point out how they are deceived about the Law of Grace. That Jesus wrath will be upon them as you stand on the sideline with a big grin.. hmm who else would be grinning from a fallen man. I know SATAN..

    So who is your father? By their fruits you will know them. Please lighten up. It is not good for your health.

  42. Dr. David Tacha Says:

    It’s all good to exchange thoughts and ideas on Bible theology. There are 1000s of theologians with different opinions and ideas especially on Revelation. The early church had several views of eternal judgment but were still followers of Jesus. Chew the meat and spit out the bones. Contrive but so true. I read his book and I gleamed some insights from Jonathan’s perspective. If I only learned from one camp, then what camp has all the truth and insights to Revelations or to any teaching ir theology in the Bible?

    The beauty of an open dialogue can be and should be to exchange ideas without judgement, attacks or anger. Paul listened to Greek philosophers and told them he precieved you are spiritual by noting the statue of the unknown God. Some listened, some got angry and some followed Paul. If we all follow the Jesus way of love, hope and faith, I believe we are in good standing. Mercy triumps over judgement.

    ‘Love, love, love, all we need is love’. Hmmmmm! Even a secular rock group got it mostly right. I wonder what Paul or Jesus would have said. What would they say about all the dialogs about this book. Maybe John 3:16? Maybe blessings and salutations?

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