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Bill Hamon’s Dangerous Doctrines

Bill and Evelyn Hamon You may never have heard of Bishop Bill Hamon, but you should know who he is. This man (pictured here with his wife, Evelyn) is one of the most influential “prophets” in the apostolic-prophetic movement, which has entered many charismatic churches — the fastest-growing churches in the world according to church growth researchers.

Hamon’s also one of the most influential charismatics in general — attending the invitation-only “Charismatic Leaders Council,” sponsored by Strang Communications (publisher of Charisma magazine), Jan. 15-16, in Lake Mary, Florida. Yet, Hamon’s teachings are some of the most unorthodox teachings in the church today.

Hamon’s Teachings
Hamon teaches that Christ can’t return to earth until Christians form a “militant” army — under the leadership of modern apostles and prophets — that will physically subdue the earth and start to establish God’s kingdom in the earth’s governments. Hamon compares this army to the Crusaders, who he describes as the church’s only bright lights during the Dark Ages.

Apostles. Prophets and the Coming Moves of GodGod’s end-times army will achieve victory, in part, by striking God’s enemies with blindness and calling down natural disasters on them — causing entire nations to convert to Christ, according to Hamon. The apostles and prophets will be so powerful that Christians who come into their presence with sin in their lives will be struck dead. All members of the army will become sinless and extremely powerful — as they become more and more enlightened through new doctrines given by the apostles and prophets — finally attaining their own immortality (this is Hamon’s unorthodox take on the rapture). See these teachings in Hamon’s book Apostles, Prophets and the Coming Moves of God (pictured here).

Hamon’s Influence in the Apostolic-Prophetic Movement
C. Peter Wagner The apostolic-prophetic movement’s most prominent leader may be C. Peter Wagner (pictured here). Yet, Wagner admits that he got many of his views from Hamon, calling Hamon one of his “closest prophetic colleagues” and confessing his great admiration for Hamon (see page 11 of Wagner’s book Changing Church and the foreword Wagner wrote to Hamon’s book Apostles, Prophets and the Coming Moves of God).

Many in the apostolic-prophetic movement regard Hamon as one of the most influential “prophets” today, and those who’ve endorsed his books include Oral Roberts, Tommy Tenney, Cindy Jacobs, Emanuele Cannistraci, David Cannistraci, Earl Paulk and Ed Silvoso.

Background on Bill Hamon
Prophets and Personal Prophecy As the founder and bishop of Christian International Ministries Network based in Santa Rosa Beach, Florida, Hamon oversees over 600 churches in 19 countries (see the list here), and he’s authored several books that have been influential in the apostolic-prophetic movement, including Prophets and Personal Prophecy (pictured here). He conducts popular seminars that teach people how to prophesy. (I attended one at the Azusa Street Centennial in Los Angeles last April, and the line of people went out the door. His questionable methods for “activating” people into prophetic gifting are topics for another post.) He also founded Christian International School of Theology, from where he earned his own two degrees: a bachelor of theology and a master of theology. According to his Web site, he also was awarded an honorary doctor of divinity degree in 1973 from an unnamed “national university,” which was when he assumed the title “Dr. Hamon.”

Hamon also serves on the faculty of the Wagner Leadership Institute, based in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

Prophet-Apostle Hamon
In addition to the titles “Bishop” and “Doctor,” Hamon calls himself “Prophet-Apostle.” In fact, he believes God has chosen him to restore doctrines that the church lost through the ages and to reveal new doctrines and final assignments.

Many of Hamon’s doctrines can’t be found in the Bible — but this doesn’t concern Hamon, who teaches that modern “apostles” and “prophets” give the church new doctrines that supplement those given by the original apostles and prophets. In Apostles, Prophets and the Coming Moves of God, Hamon says:

“He [Paul] also reveals that this anointing for divine revelation was not just given to the prophets of old but has now been equally given to Christ’s Holy Apostles and Prophets in His Church” (page 140).

This teaching — that new doctrines are needed to supplement Scripture — is a mark of the cults of Christianity, like Mormonism. In contrast, Protestants believe that Christians get their teachings from the Bible alone, which God revealed through the original prophets and apostles.

Hamon’s New Doctrines vs. the Bible
While Hamon claims that his new doctrines supplement Scripture, they also contradict it. The revelations given by the apostle John in the biblical book of Revelation, for example, teach that the judgments against the wicked will be brought by God, not Christians, and that the rapture will be God’s means of sparing Christians from the effects of those judgments, not a means of attaining their own immortality.

‘Manifest Sons of God’ Doctrine
Hamon’s teachings are consistent with the heretical “manifest sons of God doctrine,” which teaches that a breed of super-Christians will arise and subdue the earth. Another common strain of this doctrine is that Christians are gods, whose divinity will be revealed — or using King James Language — be manifested. Read more about this doctrine here.

Supporters of this doctrine misapply the biblical teaching about the church being Christ’s body, using it to argue that the church actually becomes part of God. (See pages 266-267 of Hamon’s book Apostles, Prophets and the Coming Moves of God, where he seems to be misusing this teaching this way.) Also, in his books, Hamon capitalizes the words “Church” and “Bride” to show the church’s “union with Deity through Jesus Christ,” according to an explanatory note. Statements like these, which appear throughout Hamon’s materials, make it appear he is teaching that the church actually becomes part of God.

Of course, 2 Peter 1:4 does teach that we “participate in the divine nature,” but this refers to the Holy Spirit who indwells us, enabling us — as the passage goes on to state — to “escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.” It does not teach that our nature actually becomes divine. The teaching that human beings can become divine is the same lie that Satan told Eve in the Garden of Eden.

In light of these troubling teachings, Hamon’s influence on so many Christians today disturbs me. I plan to read more of his writings and discuss more of his teachings in future posts.

Follow Discussion

67 Responses to “Bill Hamon’s Dangerous Doctrines”

  1. Herb Says:

    Holly,

    You stated:

    “In light of these troubling teachings, Hamon’s influence on so many Christians today disturbs me. I plan to read more of his writings and discuss more of his teachings in future posts.”

    I understand your feelings.

    It should disturb us. Just as when a man’s influence causes people to search for the antichrist more than seek the True Christ.

    But maybe instead of reading Hamon’s writings we should stick with Christ’s???

    It seems that to some there is a devil and a conspiracy behind everything?

    a person that sometimes comments here on your blog went as far as to say that God had killed the young man in waco because he was part of the emergent church??? give me a break.

    false teaching does disturb me, but also those who cant rest until they expose the person disturbs me as well.

  2. faith Says:

    you bring up some good points Herb….and I think Holly is obeying Christ when she exposes false teaching and she certainly appears to be reading His words (as you suggest)

    Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts17:11

  3. David Says:

    I want to thank you Holly and encourage you for exposing these heratics and thier false teachings. I read your newest blog report about Bill Hammon, I would strongly recommend anyone who reads this and follows Bill Hammon, they need to get away from this person and his false teachings, their is no where in Scripture that states anyone will be made perfect here on earth as we all have a sinful nature Romans 3:10….(NKJV) ” there is none rightoue, no, not one” (NKJV) Romans 3:23 ” for all have sinned all fall short of the glory of God” (NKJV). Bill Hammon would be wiser to confess his sins 1 John 1:9, repent of his sins and ask The Lord into his heart, if he does not he will have no excuse when he stands before Our Lord on judgement day to be cast into the lake of fire Revelation 20:11-15.

    In Christ

    Dave

  4. Sue Says:

    Holly,
    Glad to see that someone is writing about these things. I work at a large church that is located about an hour away from a CIMN church. I am frequently asked “why shouldn’t I go there to receive ‘prophetic prayer’?” I have not read all of Hamon’s materials, but enough to concur with your assessment.
    Keep it up!

    In His love
    Sue

  5. No Time To Waste Says:

    david,

    have you ever spoken with bill harmon personally?????

  6. David Says:

    No Time To Waste Says:

    March 19th, 2007 at 9:32 am
    david,

    have you ever spoken with bill harmon personally?????

    Hello whoever you are: I do not need to speak to this man, his writings tell the story. The Lord gives us His Holy Spirit to discern these things and so I will trust The Bible, My Savior and His Holy Spirit in all things. Bill is a heratic as proved by his own works. I would think any Bible believing saved person would never want to argue with Thier Lord Jesus, yet as is proven people will defend false teachings and thier teachers yet never trust nor defend Jesus and His Word The Bible. Which of course leads to wonder if they are saved at all.

    I would strongly recommend anyone who reads this and follows Bill Hammon, they need to get away from this person and his false teachings, their is no where in Scripture that states anyone will be made perfect here on earth as we all have a sinful nature Romans 3:10….(NKJV) ” there is none rightoue, no, not one” (NKJV) Romans 3:23 ” for all have sinned all fall short of the glory of God” (NKJV). Bill Hammon would be wiser to confess his sins 1 John 1:9, repent of his sins and ask The Lord into his heart, if he does not he will have no excuse when he stands before Our Lord on judgement day to be cast into the lake of fire Revelation 20:11-15.

    Choose today who you will serve Jesus or Bill the choice is yours!!!

    In Christ

    Dave

  7. No Time To Waste Says:

    Dave….

    you stated….

    “Which of course leads to wonder if they are saved at all.”

    This is a typical trait that I have found in people that really enjoy blasting other ministries. they find someone that disagrees with them and then begins to question their salvation. the only thing smells of i am better than you. like i said in another post… i am not against speaking out against false prophecy and false teaching…. i am just against this method…. i personally think its weak. holly posted scripture under “name calling” that i totally agree with. where she misses it….. this is not a church or a church body.

    i am simply concerned that if all of the judgment coming against so many ministries is more toward the ministry than it is concern for the individual that might fall into those false teachings.

  8. Carolina Garcia Says:

    Hi Holly!
    I recently found your site.
    My christian growing backround is from neopentecostalism, so i´m very interested in know more besides my church teaching. So it´s very helpful your site.
    Would you give me your email to write you something?
    Blessings form Mexico

  9. Voice of Truth Says:

    I am in agreement with what you have shared here.
    Bill Hamon, his heretical teachings and his influence on the apostelic movement and it’s followers are a huge concern.

    Here is what I believe. not just because of the Word, and my own discernment but because what I have experienced first hand.

    This warped “crusader mentality” is alive and well and growing in strength. It is their way or the highway, and in the future anyone who calls themselves a follower of Christ who speaks against them will not only be falsely labeled a heretic but also treated as such were centuries ago. Though that time of such extremes has not arrived quite YET.

    We may speak in love [with firmness] and truth, just as Christ did… but their often venomic, angry and unscriptural responses which try to “rationalize away the truth” show exactly what spirit is control of them… the same one that ultimately cried out “crucify Him” in Jesus’ day.

    Just as Christ did, we must pray that God forgive them, and especially pray for them.

    God knows that there are still some hearts open up to the truth. Some will actually have ears to hear the message you are trying to bring across here and see the light.

    Great site, and a hard calling.. keep up the good work!

  10. Ron McIntyre Says:

    Hi Holly,

    I am sending this because I like your blog. I think you are sincere and down-to-earth. I enjoy reading your articles. I do notice that all your references are to the NIV. After reading your articles I believe that you believe in what you are doing.

    I have to believe that you are not aware of just how bad the NIV is. I could fill up pages. Many good men have explored this subject. I have copied some of this.

    You are working to expose false doctrine and teachings in the Body of Christ. So I would ask you to consider a few things.

    Deception is everywhere. It was not that many years ago we only had one bible. Now I think the count is 124. We went from the KJV to 124 bibles. And my count may be off a few.

    The NIV is the most popular. It is called the International version because that is what the plans for it are. The International, anyone of any religion can use it, bible.

    All the modern versions are based on Catholic manuscripts. So naturally you would expect to see works and not grace.

    One of our Christain Doctrines is that if we except Christ as our Saviour we are saved. The Catholic believes they are saved at infant baptism, (not scriptual), and are being saved daily by their good works, (not scriptual).

    In 1 Cor. 1:18 KJV Paul said “but unto us which are saved” . NIV “but to us who are being saved”.

    Which is it? Are we saved or are we being saved? Can’t have it both ways. Many other examples

    We see a lot of groups today who are more interested in bringing everybody together than they are in Doctrine. We see catholics and muslims and protestants and others all saying we have something in common. Forget your doctrine and lets dine together.

    I noticed you quoted Amos 3:2 in the article “Defending Silence”. I wonder if the modern trends are caused by the NIV rendition of the truth.

    Amos 3:2 KJV Can two walk together, except they be agreed? Now we know what that means. If you have different doctrine you can’t function together. In fact the second epistle of John says; 2John 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

    But what does Amos 3:2 in the NIV say? Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so? Well, now according to the NIV, me and Osama can walk together simply by agreeing to do so. How nice.

    New Agers today will tell you that Jesus and Satan are the same person. If they tell you that and you have the NIV don’t try to deny it. You won’t be able to.
    Isaiah 14:12 in the KJV says that Lucifer fell from Heaven. The NIV changed that to the “Morning Star”. But in Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star. We see that Jesus Christ is the Morning Star.

    So in the NIV Jesus and Lucifer are the same person. And we wonder where people get these ideas.

    In Christianity we have to have a Sinless Saviour. But not in the NIV.

    Mat 5:22 KJV But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    Mar 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched [it] out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

    It is amazing what you can do with three little words. Jesus Himself said in Mat 5:22 that if you are angry with your brother “without a cause” you are in danger of the judgement. In Mar 3:5 He is angry with His brother but He has cause to be, “the hardness of their hearts”. If He had no cause He would be in danger of the Judgement. A sinner.

    The NIV has deleted those three little words, “without a cause” . Mat 5:22 NIV But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother, will be subject to judgement.

    The NIV removes the blood of Jesus Christ!
    COLOSSIANS 1:14: The KJB reads, “In whom we have redemption THROUGH HIS BLOOD, even the forgiveness of sins:” The NIV reads, “In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” The NIV rips out the precious words “THROUGH HIS BLOOD”! Friend, redemption is ONLY “THROUGH HIS BLOOD”. Hebrews 9:22, reads, “. . . without shedding of BLOOD is no remission.” That old song says, “What can wash away my sins, NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS!”

    The NIV perverts The Lord’s Prayer into The Devil’s Prayer!
    LUKE 11:2-4: The KJB reads, “. . .Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.” The NIV removes everything that refers to a Holy God in heaven -”WHICH ART IN HEAVEN. . . Thy will be done, AS IN HEAVEN, so in earth. . . but DELIVER US FROM EVIL.” Everything that distinguishes God from the Devil is REMOVED! “OUR FATHER” of the NIV is “NOT IN HEAVEN” and “DOES NOT DELIVER FROM EVIL!” I wonder who it could be? (hint: see John 8:44)

    The NIV completely “TAKETH AWAY” 17 verses!
    Wonderful and precious verses like:
    MATTHEW 18:11: “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.”.
    ACTS 8:37: “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

    The NIV PERversion completely “TAKETH AWAY” Matthew 17:21, 18:11, 23:14, Mark 7:16, 9:44, 9:46, 11:26, 15:28, Luke 17:36, 23:17, John 5:4, Acts 8:37, 15:34, 24:7, 28:28, Romans 16:24 and 1 John 5:7!

    After Mark 16:8 the NIV says, “The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.” ZAP-There goes another 12 verses! And by the way, that is absolutely untrue! The book, The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel of Mark, by Dean Burgon contains over 400 pages of documented evidence for Mark 16:9-20, that has never been refuted, nor ever will!

    After John 7:52, the NIV, reads, “The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11″ ZAP-There goes another 12 verses!

    Matt. 12:47, 21:44, Luke 22:43 and 22:44 are all removed in the footnotes!

    That’s 45 complete verses the NIV removes from the text or in the footnotes!

    The NIV “TAKETH AWAY” 64,576 words!
    Don’t look for the “mercyseat” in the NIV – GONE!
    Don’t look for “Jehovah” in the NIV – GONE!
    Don’t look for the “Godhead” in the NIV – GONE!

    The NIV removes wonderful Bible “terms” like remission, regeneration, impute, propitiation, new testament and many others!

    Despite God’s clear warnings about “taking away” from His words – the NIV removes 64,576 words! Over 8 percent of God’s word is “TAKETH AWAY”!

    That equals REMOVING the books of Ruth, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Lamentations, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, Titus, Philemon, James, I Peter, II Peter, I John, II John, III John, Jude and more – COMBINED!!! The equivalence of ripping out OVER 30 BOOKS of the Bible!

    In case you think it’s insignificant words like “thee” and “thou”? The NIV removes major portions of at least 147 verses!

    Here’s a small (very small) sampling of words removed in the NIV!

    Matt. 6:13, “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.”
    Matt. 15:8, “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth”
    Matt. 19:9, “and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”
    Matt. 20:7, “and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.”
    Matt. 20:16, “for many be called, but few chosen.”
    Matt. 20:22, “and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with”
    Matt. 25:13, “wherein the Son of Man cometh.”
    Matt. 27:35, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet They parted my garments among them and upon my vesture did they cast lots”
    Mark 6:11, “Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.”
    Mark 10:21, “take up the cross.”
    Luke 1:28, “blessed art thou among women”
    Luke 4:4, “but by every word of God”
    Luke 4:8, “get thee behind me Satan”
    Luke 4:18, “he hath sent me to heal the broken hearted”
    Luke 11:2-4, “Our … which art in … Thy will be done, as in heaven so in earth… but deliver us from evil”
    John 1:27, “is preferred before me”
    John 3:13, “which is in heaven”
    John 3:15, “should not perish”
    John 11:41, “from the place where the dead was laid”
    John 16:16, “because I go to the Father”
    Acts 10:6, “he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do”
    Acts 15:18, “Known unto God are all his works”
    Acts 20:24, “But none of these things move me”
    Acts 23:9, “let us not fight against God”
    Rom. 8:1, “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”
    Rom. 13:9, “Thou shalt not bear false witness”
    I Cor. 6:20, “and in your spirit which are God’s”
    I Cor. 11:24; “Take eat… broken”
    II Cor. 10:4, “but mighty through God”
    Gal. 3:1, “that you should not obey the truth”
    Eph. 5:30, “of his flesh, and of his bones”
    Phil. 3:16, “let us mind the same thing”
    I Tim. 6:5, “from such wthdraw thyself”
    Heb. 7:21, “after the order of Melchisedec”
    I Pet. 1:22, “through the Spirit”
    I Pet. 4:14, “on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified”
    I John 4:3, “Christ is come in the flesh”
    I John 5:13, “and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God”
    Rev. 1:11, “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last”
    Rev. 5:14, “him that liveth for ever and ever”
    Rev. 14:5, “before the throne of God”
    Rev. 21:24, “of them which are saved”

    Jesus Christ says, in Luke 4:4, “. . . It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD of God.” But not according to the NIV! In fact, the NIV even “TAKETH AWAY” the last half of Luke 4:4 – “BUT BY EVERY WORD OF GOD”! And Jesus Christ was quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 to Satan! Does the NIV PERversion seriously think the Lord Jesus Christ does NOT know Duet. 8:3???

    There is a lot more but you get the idea.

    God Bless

  11. Holly Pivec Says:

    Dear Ron,

    Thank you for your encouraging words about my blog! I also appreciate you taking the time to share your concerns about the NIV with me. It is my understanding, based on what I’ve read from some of the leading Bible scholars of today, that the NIV and NASB and other new translations are based on older and more reliable manuscripts than the ones the KJV was based on. That’s not to say that the KJV isn’t a good translation, but the others are more faithful to the original manuscripts, according to the consensus of Bible scholars today. Here’s a link to a site operated by Dr. Daniel Wallace of Dallas Theological Seminary that explains why the newer translations are more reliable: http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=665. Wallace is widely recognized as a leading Greek scholar.

    Even the editor of the KJV (Erasmus, a Roman Catholic priest), in the preface to the original 1611 edition, acknowledged that, as more manuscript evidence became available, better translations than his could be made. He also acknowledged that the translation of the KJV wasn’t perfect and that even poor Bible translations still contain God”s word. See Wallace’s article on this here: http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1823

    Also, I don’t believe any doctrines of the Bible are changed in the differing translations. No one reading the NIV would come to the conclusion, for example, that Lucifer and Jesus were the same (at least not a reasonable person). There is a lot about both Jesus and Lucifer throughout the Bible that makes it clear that they are on opposing sides.

    I don’t think all religions would feel comfortable with the NIV since it teaches the gospel and all the other distinctly Christian doctrines. The blood of Christ is clearly taught in the NIV.

    Here is another of Wallace’s articles called “The Conspiracy Behind the New Bible Translations”: http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=706

    Not only is the text of the KJV less reliable, but it is also very difficult for modern readers to understand. I don’t like to see unnecessary barriers put up between people and God’s Word.

    Those are my quick thoughts. I hope you’ll look at the sources I linked to because I really believe that the King James Only-stance is unnecessarily divisive. Again, I appreciate your concern for me!

  12. Justin Says:

    Hi Holly,

    I knew a CI pastor in my area a number of years ago. I know from my short experience with that particular pastor that CI (at least this pastor did) focused heavily on Spiritual Warfare through intercession and Prasie and Worship.

    These doctrines you speak of from Bill Hamon are very disturbing to learn of. I don’t want to go buy the book but would like to read the passages on the parts you mention (about the literal militant army).

    Could you email me those quotes if it is not too much trouble. I would be intereasted to see what this pastor would say about this issue.

    Any doctrine of this nature is very scary to think people can think they are serving God but be so far off base.

  13. kimberly Says:

    1. there is spiritual warfare
    2. we do fight a fight and war a war
    3. the high praise of God is like a two-edged sword
    4. the enemy attacks us with words and thoughts
    5. one of our weapons is the word… that we speak and declare
    6. we are to pull down strong-holds and cast our arguments and imaginations.
    7. we are to submit to God, resist the devil to make him flee

  14. David Says:

    David Says:

    April 16th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
    Hello Everyone especially all my Brothers and Sisters in The Lord Jesus Christ: I will be brief. I have given allot of thought and prayer to what we all comment on good, bad or in between. I have decided that after prayer I am and so are most of us reacting to so many things on this blog. We are all in our minds and hearts to one degree or another right.

    The point I am trying to make, would it not be wiser for all of us to stop trying to get points across about people and instead concentrate how we could encourage one another in The Word. I know that there are many false teachers and false works, yet do you not think it would be wiser to follow Jesus example and pray for people who we feel are in error of scripture Matthew 5:43-48. If they are wrong, The Lord will, as always, deal with them and thier works, He will deny them Matthew 7:21-23 and Romans 12:19-20. If we go even further we see His example on the Cross
    Luke 23:34.

    I can speak from personal experience here as I am as wrong as anyone else, and as Jesus also reminds us in Matthew 5:14-16 we are His light, the light of the world, and we are to shine for Him so as to glorify The Father in heaven.

    I pray that we can turn Holly’s wonderful blog into an encouraging spirit filled site for one another. It would be so wonderful if others would read this blog and write comments like Trust in the Lord, I recieved Christ today, I was water baptised today, etc.

    Thank you all and God Bless

    Your Brother in The Lord

    Dave

    davidandsherri@pei.symapatico.ca

  15. a follower of Jesus Says:

    I currently attend a church that is aligned with WLI, and in the last few years I have seen and heard doctrines that at first puzzled me, but now cause me great concern.

    For instance, using Matt 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost” as a justification for attempting to take dominion over cities, institutions, even countries etc when the verse plainly refers to people of various ethnic groups and NOT nation states.

    One does not, nor cannot, baptize land masses.

    It is this sort of misapplication of the Word of God that causes me concern.

    In fact there are songs that I cannot in good conscience sing during services because they seem more like self-congratulatory anthems than praises to our God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Perhaps I am wrong, but at times I wonder where the burden for sinners has gone. Where is the awareness of sin? Where has sound doctrine gone?

    It grieves me to realize that people I know and care for have bought into this new wineskin doctrine and that I will have to eventually leave a church I have attended (not always faithfully I must admit) for almost 15 years.

    If I have to choose between agreeing with Wagner Leadership Institute doctrine and what’s written in the Bible, I will choose the Bible.

    It’s words are the words of life.

    I do not know what the words of the WLI and their kind are, but I am certain they are not the words that Jesus would have me hear.

  16. hastings Says:

    in pursuit of the kingdom and discoering more of my prophetic calling i have come accross books written by the bishop hence would love to learn more and develop in the calling maturely.

    would also would like to receive more infromation of the apostolic and prophetic school

  17. Bob Says:

    I only inquired into a church associated with the Bishop. I never heard of him other wise.
    The church appeared to be a short term ( 4-6 month) teaching institute.
    I e mailed them about there courses.
    http://www.extendedlife.net/schools_of_the_holy_spirit.htm

    They sent me a recored tape that was incredibly prophetic. Past and current.
    So, I know there is lots of weird doctrine floating around, but if these people were not true disciples of JESUS, there is no way they could of prophesied as they did.
    Yes?

  18. Sherry Says:

    I am not a CI person. I just came back from the UK and listening to some CIEurope leaders. Their concern was Jesus, that His Name be preached, that anything that would separate them in their relationship with the Lord would be removed. Every year they spend days and weeks on their face before God, praying that everything that can be shaken will, asking God’s anointing on their schedule and what direction He would have them take, praying that God’s will would be done on earth (Mt.6:10) . Every day their lives are spent obeying whatever the Lord asks of them, even when they don’t want to do it (i.e. speaking to strangers when they just want to be with family, etc). Of course, the daily prayer is vital too, in addition to the yearly prayer for direction.
    I have not met anyone who has truly been that surrendered to Christ and that courageous in their prayers. Most have a grocery list of personal favors to ask of the Lord and pretend they don’t hear Him when He “whispers in their ear a direction this way or that” (Isa.) when it is not the direction they want to go.
    I do not know the ministry in FL but we are the body of Christ, told to take up armor and fight against the enemy (Eph 6), we are the bride of Christ, told to make ourselves ready for the return of the Bridegroom. I haven’t seen much in the actions of Christians (American anyway) that says I will forget what lies behind and run straight (without distraction) to see that God’s call is fulfilled on this earth.
    What then? I’d suggest looking at the fruit of this ministry. Does it build up? Is there salvation of Jesus? Is there a littered trail of damaged people or churches? Do they ask of God things that reflect trust in a living, big God who can do more than we could ever ask or think or do they put God in a box and think He is not capable of the things scripture shows He is capable of? Are they afraid of popular opinion (Mt 10:28)? Are they into materialism or do they use the money they raise to reach more for the gospel (Mt 6:21). Basically, is the fruit that comes out of this ministry healthy or poor (Mt. 7:15-20)? If it is healthy then we need to get out of our armchairs and do something, though what we do is between ourselves and God, but I would not want to speak against something God is doing, no matter how we disagree with a vessel here and there.
    It happened all the time in Jesus day, and the people who should have recognized the move as being of God, just sat and critiqued. In the words of Gamaliel (Acts 5:35-39) “…if what they have planned and done is of human origin, it will disappear, but if it comes from God, you cannot possibly defeat them. You could find yourselves fighting against God!” (Today’s English Version)
    In these latter days God has called for unity, not separation so what are we truly seeking?

  19. endtimespropheticwords Says:

    >but if these people were not true disciples of JESUS, there is no way they >could of prophesied as they did.

    Nonsense. The devil and his minions can seem good at ‘prophesying’. The devil even quotes scripture rather well.

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com

  20. Kim Skivington Says:

    The church is the Body of Christ. That is scriptural. In the beginning the destiny of man as stated in Genesis was to fill the earth and subdue it. When Christ died on the cross, he restored that to us so that we can indeed subdue the kingdoms and principalities, the spiritual hosts of wickeeness. If we were not in a war, why would Paul say take up the full armor of God? We go on the offensive with the sword of the Spirit, the word of God. Our struggle is not with flesh and blood. In Revelation it says the saints overcame the devil by the blood of Christ and the word of their testimony plus not loving their lives unto death. We can overcome evil principalites through what God has given us.

    And may I remind you, the rapture is nowhere mentioned in the Bible. There is no clear teaching about how and when that will take place, only interpretations of men and they do not agree. This imagined scenerio peple have about the rapture is based on a vision a lady had in Scotland. And Dallas Schofiled put the theory in his Bible notes.

    We are to occupy until Jesus comes, Jesus says. He says the Kingdom of heaven is something the violent take my force. The wicked could not be referred to here. They could not take the kingdom of God. The saints are the ones and again we must war to claim what belongs to us, what Christ has restored to us. It’s ours. But the devil won’t roll over and play dead.

    The Bible declares Jesus is coming back for a Bride without wrinkld or spot. Positional righteousness and the degree we experience are different things, else why would Paul call the Corinthians carnal? Jesus is perfecting us even though in the Cross we are declared rightous. We still must war to walk as the children of God He has saved us to become.

  21. Thimeaus Jubal Vevera Says:

    I would like to receive some of your teaching materials since I do tap into the apostolic and prophetic ministry and I do preach about it. Please do send me some teachings articles of yours to help me enhance this move to those who don’t know it and are not in it.

  22. Kingdom krunkq Says:

    This all happens because there is not a clear understanding about the Kingdom of God and how God works His goverment on earth. Also, there is stated in the book of Ephesians 4:11-13 “11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. ”
    If people really understand all these, there would not be any confusion.

    Unfortunatelly many selcalled and ordaind pastors, bishops, preachers, and others who claim be God’s followers have harmed the beliver’s mentality turning it into a religious mentality and not the Kingdom mentality as it was God’s intent. Genesis 1:26 clearly talks about mankind rulership (not ownership) of the earth to subdue it…

    there are many books to read about, specially from people lke Myles Monroe, Hank and brenda Kunneman but most importantly the reading and understanding the Bible and having revelation upon it.

    God bless and “repent” {matthew 4:14 =renew your mind, the way you think} because the Kingdom of Heaven has arrived

  23. Anonymous Says:

    I hear alot of attacks here, attacking something you don’t know about!

    Eph 4 says the are apostles, prophets, pastors teachers and evangelist.

    Do I agree with everything every preacher says absolutly not!

    Do I attack them absolutly not.

    Why the controversy? The bible says to avoid it (look it up)

    We all need to study, pray, and follow peace with all men. The bible says

    without holiness no man will see the Lord. Judge not least you be judged!

  24. Ken Says:

    Hi
    You should be a journalist (National Enquirer). Write a lot, condemn some, point to faults of others but cannot place meat on the plate. Bill Hammon….. Spirit of Error….Hammon’s new doctrine vs the Bible… Then we are referred to “read more about this doctrine of error”. Instead of condemning why not write facts to prove your points and confirm that what you say is sound. Right now, I can take as myth what you wrote as you did not present anything to prove your point. It is a sad state when someone condemn without justification. Is it a need to show superiority?
    Thanks to the Lord that some persons refrained from negative comments for lack of facts but a sad a state for those who agrees with you without clear knowledge of the situation.
    I have most and read most of his books and yes sometimes he stretches my mind but would not be ready to condemn for such and yes he could be possibly wrong and I might not be grounded enough in the Word to decipher what is false but at the same time had a lot of my questions answered by reading them. Instead of giving us your views why don’t you give us reference in his specific books and pages or even print a passage of what was said that is not in conformity with the Bible so that everyone can assess what you are presenting. Usually reference is given from any Pastor when giving a teaching or at least he should. I thought that by going to your reference “Read more about this doctrine of error” I would get something new but it was material to confirm your doctrine. Really I still do not know if it applies in this situation. I would be interested in specifically knowing the error(s) from his teachings as they could affect me. Many blessings to you.

  25. Uzo Says:

    It seems to mean it is always the case when the purpose of a thing is not understood abuse is inevitable.
    I can see clearly that a lot of God’s people do lack great understanding of the Fathers eternal prupose for mankind, who He created in His Image.
    The Kingdom government of God, is not a new doctrine or heresy. It is all about the rule of God on earth through His son’s He created in His Image. God does not expect us to live less than that, actually without the manifestation of the son’s of God, the whole world will be in darkness.
    We should go to God to help us understand His plan and purpose.
    remember “God does not think the way man thinks, neither does He sees things the way man sees things.
    In His Light alone must we see light.
    I believe the body of Christ need more light and revelation
    Kingdom message is not new, that was all Christ Jesus preached and demonstrated, and He has promised, that we as believers we do the same work that He did, for as He is , so are we in this world.
    All about the kingdom government of God is supernatural.
    By the way the kingdom is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
    Please study books by Dr. Munroe, to help throw more light on Kingdom issues.

  26. Time to Prophesy!! Says:

    I happen to know Bill Hamon personall and I know for sure that he is the real deal. I have attended his church (CI) all my life and I trust that man with my life. Be careful what you say about the Prophets!

  27. bro servant: c.lewis ritvalsky Says:

    Salutations and Greetings ,

    On behalf of “THE LOVE” of God particularly what we have and do experience in Christ Jesus. Let me first say that any open conversation lends room for change and as importantly dialogue.

    The book of Ephesians 4:11 clearly states that He gave some, apostles; some, prophets; and some, evangelist;and some pastors and teachers. (Ryrie/KJV)

    I must confess initially I thought the Lord may have been stating this scripture from a historical positioning. That would be going along with many organized denominations who take the position that prophets were up until the time of Christ and apostles had to have seen Christ and experienced His Resurrection. The position regarding the apostles would also be one excepted by The Church of Christ ( having seen Christ, etc, etc).

    This position does not however take into account that Paul from what we have read in the bible had an encounter with our Lord via His voice (Acts 9:3-6) that was not physical as in the person of CHRIST. What was so awesome was that it was a glorified (from Heaven) interaction with our Lord which is inclusive of seeing or relating to our Lord after His Resurrection. (Acts 9:17) Henceforth validation of Paul’s apostleship
    Christ given authority. Question is have we in these last days and times been called as apostles in Christ as we know clearly that is what the ministry of Christ produces and Christ ministry alone.

    I personally do not think anything is wrong with revelation as this could be considered understanding. (wouldn’t you agreed) The bible tells us that understanding comes from GOD. When we read the bible and the same glory that Paul experienced is made known to us in this realm of the flesh or physical senses isn’t that Jesus allowing us to see HIM through His glory , through the Spirit and through the invisible?

    Why is it that we have accepted the portions of this scripture pastors,teachers, evengelists and deacons from the book of Timothy and not the others (apostles/prophets) . Is it because when we are trained up in a particular way we come up against great difficulty in our own minds when Christ himself often times is attempting to bring us fresh understanding (revelation if you will) from His Throne Room or better put from the Spirit or from above.

    I mean not to offend anyone yet what I perceive is when you go to school
    and trust me this is a schooling process we have been called into in CHRIST, the book of 2 Tim 2:15 tells us we are responsible for what we follow, have faith in or believe. That being said is it possible that each of us are positionally different places in our growth (relationship or conversion) in Christ and that one who has a elementary level of learning can not be expected to understand the next level of junior high, high school, college and so on. Let us remember that this is what Paul himself refers to when he states that some have need of milk (young christians) and others need of meat (more mature chrisitians).

    This in fact is what the modern day pastors, doctors, bishops are in fact relaying to us that like the pharisees they know more than we do because we have not gone to their schools or we have not gotten what we have in the manner they got it therefore we are not valid. However, please let us be reminded that God or Christ if you will does the validating and more specifically Christ stated that my sheep know the sound of my voice and another they will not follow. We need ask ourselves today are we in fact following Christ or are we following man?

  28. Anointed One Says:

    If you all want to stay in your state of tradition than go ahead, and guess what, I am going with Bill Hamon. My prayer is that your eyes be enlighten to what the Spirit of the Lord is saying to the Body of Christ, he that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the church, may God bless all of you and open up your dark understanding. There is nothing wrong with Bill Hamon.

  29. The President Says:

    What total garbage you have written here. Not only have you managed to follow in the footsteps of the sons of Belial and the false witnesses in Scripture to totally misrepresent and misquote Dr. Hamon’s teachings, but you are obviously harboring a very critical and religious spirit in rejecting the truth. Not only have I read almost every one of Dr. Hamon’s books and supported his ministry for almost two decades, but I know him, his family and the church he founded in Florida personally. I want all the readers to know that you have totally misrepresented his teachings and if they sincerely desire to know this man or his ministry they should read his material and listen to his teaching for themselves. As for you, I pray that your eyes will be opened to the truth and that you will refrain from such poor judgment of Christ’s ministers. You have been sowing discord in the Body of Christ and not revealing heresy at all. Maybe you should check yourself before you wreck yourself by attacking God’s servants. I only pray that you still have at least some small measure of the fear of the Lord in you.

  30. sandra Says:

    Let these scriptures speak to you…

    “Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?” James 4:11-12

    Jesus said in His “Sermon on the Mount” in Matthew 7:1-2:

    “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.”

    Stay busy following the teachings of Jesus. Take care of the sick, feed the hungry… etc.

  31. JOAN KINGDOM Says:

    I READ THIS BLOG WITH GREAT INTEREST. I HAVE BEEN UNDER THE TEACHING OF MANY OF THE PEOPLE MENTIONED. WAS IN A DISCIPLESHIP CHURCH [DEREK PRINCE WAS ONE OF THE 5-FOLD MINISTRY ALSO ERN BAXTER WHO ARE NOW DEAD AND CHARLES SIMPSON WHO IS STILL ALIVE–CAN’T REMEMBER THE OTHER TWO NOW. IN ANY EVENT THAT WAS 20 YEARS IN THE CHURCH. ALSO HAD 10 YEARS IN AN ECCLESIASTICAL CHURCH AND I HAD TO TERMINATE MY MEMBERSHIP THROUGH A MATHEW 18 PROCEDURE BECAUSE MEN IN LEADERSHIP IN THE CHURCH USURPED MY AUTHORITY [NOT THE MAN IN ADMINISTRATION WHO HONORED MY REQUEST] SO I AM NOW DIRECTLY UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF MY ONLY TRUE FAMILY: GOD MY FATHER, JESUS MY HUSBAND/FRIEND, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO LIVES IN ME. IT HAS BEEN AN EXCITING AND CHALLENGING JOURNEY BUT THANKS BE TO GOD THAT I HAVE BEEN “DELIVERED” FROM FALSE TEACHING AND OBEY THE ONLY TRUE GOD AS THE HOLY SPIRIT OPENS MY UNDERSTANDING TO HIS HOLY WORD. HOW ABOUT YOU? IF ANYONE RESPONDS TO THIS BLOG YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT WHATEVER I DO IS WITH MY TWO HANDS AND THE HELP OF GOD.

  32. Personal Experience Says:

    If it weren’t for the CI ministry, I would still be wandering around church to church, attending and giving tithe, reading the Bible and trying my very best to live up to Gods commandments. All along believing that I will be going to heaven; It was actions, going through the motions, but was it truly real?

    No, in fact it was all very fake, and until I attended a CI church in Baltimore MD I never really knew God, let alone have a deep and personal relationship with him.

    My reaction to this group was critical at first only because I didn’t believe that people can actually be this kind, humble, supportive, and loving toward total strangers. Now me being a “Christian” it’s sad to realize that I was skeptical as a result of this surprising behavior and acceptance.

    In addition, there are people who are “false prophets” but the lord says these will be discerned by their fruits. Yes, many people will fall and follow these people, but I assure you CI is not in this category.

    Personally, attending and applying these teachings of CI’s ministry, I myself have experienced and changing of myself unto Christ image. Am I saying that I am perfect, no, but when your outlook on life has completely changed, your love for strangers is just so overwhelming that you choke up to even think about all their suffering. Where you are satisfied, and so full of joy for life that you just burst out in laughter at the thought of where you have come from and where you are currently. To never fear where your needs will come from because you know the Lord has it covered. To hear the voice of God speak to you in such a “down to earth” way and as you listen and reflect you just stand in awe that through your obedience you see that you just missed a major catastrophe…

    This is just a small portion of the joy and freedom that this ministry has brought to my life, it is so sad to think that even the highest levels of church authority have never experienced this.

    So whoever, think what you will, but I suggest testing and discerning a ministry for yourself, and calling on God for an answer before coming to a final conclusion based on another’s opinions.

  33. bryan daVIS Says:

    you try an attack bishop bill hammond your out of your tree . When you effect the body of christ like him in a positive way. Have you ever talked to bishop? Have you ever share your thelogical concerns. You need to go to his ministry share your concerns your being conformer accuser brethern.

  34. SeguidordeCristo Says:

    Blessings,
    I would like to share what I have found about CI and Hamon:
    In his book “Prophets Pitfalls and Principles” page 59 (Spanish edition) he says that he “reports” to a College of Bishops. So I decided to find out who they were.

    This is the College of Bishops from the International Communion of Charismatic Churches. One of their web sites says that (ciresourcecenter.com)

    “Dr. Hamon is also the President and Founder of the Network of Prophetic Ministries, which was founded to train, equip and provide accountability for many of the prophets God is raising up. This position of oversight, involving hundreds of prophets, apostles and pastors, was recognized by his peers when he was unanimously confirmed as a Bishop among the College of Bishops of the International Communion of Charismatic Churches. This affiliation provides Dr. Hamon fellowship and mutual accountability among such outstanding men of God as: Earl Paulk, Benson Idahosa, John Meares and Robert McAllister. dr. Hamon is one of the Apostolic ministers within the Congress of elders of the Network of Christian Ministries.”

    This organization (ICCC) was founded by the Vatican and it could probably still be controlled by it… visit the ICCC official site: http://www.theiccc.com/history.html (a few extracts from this page below)

    “The political and social agendas of the organization are being achieved through the development of national and international Christian networks and coalitions.” – [[IC being one of them]]

    “In 1975 David DuPlessis (known as Mr. Pentecost) was called upon by Pope Paul VI to create and mediate the Roman Catholic-Pentecostal Dialogues…David DuPlessis in 1976 brought into those dialogues Robert McAlister who was leading a major Pentecostal reformation in Brazil among Roman Catholics and Pentecostals alike….the pope saw it as a gesture of genuine desire to identify with the historical church and he defended the actions of the three Pentecostals and called for McAlister and DuPlessis to be brought before him for commissioning as bishops of special recognition and rights thereby establishing them both as direct descendants of apostolic succession….”

    “Bishop McAllister acting as the Primate, and Bishop Meares functioning as the Prelate then proceeded to consecrate Bishop Benson Idahosa (placing him in the line of succession) who along with Earl Paulk formed the original College of Bishops”

    “The International Communion of Charismatic Churches has continued to grow and expand around the globe and has recently made new strides in bridging the gap between the historical and spiritual church once again. As evidenced by the recent participation of the Monsignor of the Roman Catholic Church of Curacao in the Conference of the ICCC bishops the heritage of the Communion is intact.”

    So, I am not against Catholics, but I am against what Catholic Church teaches because it is against the Bible.

  35. Gladys Says:

    God, the creator of aLL THINGS sees all, hears all…and will judge all men.

    Those who truly fear God will be very careful not to grieve HIM.

    Mind your own…….look at your own flaws……do not look at he splinter on your brother’s eyes because there is a log on your own.

    God knows whatto do with BIll in case he is doing something wrong……..also with other so called preachers who are not preaching the truth……..but let God be God………..leave your concerns with Him……..if in case you are the wrong one……GOD WILL TRULY JUDGE YOU………….GOD WILL NOT SPARE YOU………
    For your own sake………….pray !

  36. Terry Chambers Says:

    Church, get outside the building and start having church where it counts, the lost aren’t banging the door down to get in. They want to see real , broken, humble Christianity at work, one that brings glory to jesus, not some mans works or regiousity. Stop tearing each other up and get your eyes and your vision on Jesus, the author and perfecter of your faith, your walk, your salvation.

  37. Bill Vincent Says:

    You have no revelation. One scripture to back your attack of Bill Hamon. You need to devote your time on go after God not trying to be God. If Bill Hamon had been off a bit we would need to pray for him. I pray your eyes be open before the “touch not my anointed ” effects you.

  38. l bg Says:

    Hi,
    THere appears to be a widespread misunderstanding about our duty as Christians regarding judging others. We are to judge between good and evil; truth and error; good spirits and evil spirits. Paul even tells us how to do it!! Paul said that many have left the way of Truth and shipwrecked their faith because they listened to deceiving spirits and seducing spirits. We are called to correct, rebuke, exhort one another- to discern true doctrines from false doctrines, to pull our brother out of the fire!! That is our call and our duty.
    If an doctrine doesn’t stand up to scriptural scrutiny, we are called to cast it out and warn others in love.

    Jesus had harsh words for leaders who walked teaching error. He called other religious leaders “brood of vipers” “the blind leading the blind” “whitewashed tombs” He taught that love is Truth and that error is harmful.
    THe Bible also teaches that there is a way that seems right to a man but it ends in destruction. Jesus came to show us the way- the only way, the only Truth, the only Gospel. He warns us to beware of other gospels, doctrines of demons, deceiving spirits, false teachers and that destruction awaits those who engage in it!! Holly’s warning is what love would do- it’s what Jesus would do, and it’s what Truth would do.
    If we see our brother heading into the fire and pull him out we save him and if we don’t warn him, we share in his guilt!

    Jesus said that we ought not to judge one another unfairly or hypocritically- that is the judgment we are told not to engage in: such as
    thinking someone is a gossip and admonishing them when you do the same thing! Even then, though, we are to correct them, but only after we first confess and repent of our own sin. “first, pull the log out of your eye, THEN you can see clearly to pull the splinter out of your brother’s eye. We are SUPPOSED TO pull the splinter out of our brother’s eye, after we correct ourselves.
    Love is not silent in the face of evil and error.

  39. anthony v. fontana Says:

    Instead of giving your opion on Dr. Hamon doctirnal views being heritical, why don’t you invite him to discuss your concerns on exactlly what he believes and what you believe.

  40. Sue Says:

    Rather than trusting what anybody says. One should always ask God to show them the truth. My stance is… Lord, I know what this side says and what that side says. I see what your word says. Study it from cover to cover. Go to investagate. Take God with you. Again ask Him. He knows the Truth. He will show you if you get your ideas and man’s ideas out of the way. Let us not hender what the Spirt of the Living God is doing. Remember the Sadduesses and Pharasses? They also were against what Jesus was doing. Let us not do the same to the Holy Spirit. Let’s find out..what is God doing. God is a Big God. His ways are not our ways. Again…what is God doing theses days? Is He just twiddling His thumbs? I think not! He is building people with a purpose for a use, not just pew warmers.. I for one will following Him not flesh and blood only. I will hear and take what I hear to Him,The Spirit is who we should be listening closely to. What if God is moving and He is truely the creater of all this you hate. Did he say..if you are not with me, you are against me. I for one do not want to be against Him. I will search this thing out by the Spirit of God..who is the light of the world and the light that lights up man’s spirit. Give us eyes to see You Oh Lord..where You are and where You AINT!.

  41. Servant2112 Says:

    No Time To Waste Says:

    March 19, 2007 at 9:32 am
    david,

    have you ever spoken with bill harmon personally?????

    ___________________________________

    No Time to Waste:

    One need not speak personally to Joseph Smith, or Herbert Armstrong, or Charles Darwin, or Charlie Manson to speak out about the lies they perpetrated upon the naïve. It is unrealistic to sit down and have a chat over coffee with every purveyor of deception that happens to crop up. If you don’t like being informed, then don’t troll websites that expose charlatans. There are many websites that are serving up the spiritual Kool-aid while God’s servants stand by and do nothing. You’d probably be happier posting there. I am grateful to informed Christians, such as Holly, who have the ability and fortitude to expose these false teachers. I just left a church the was pushing false teaching like there was no tomorrow. Thank God for His blessed Word, for the Holy Spirit’s guidance, and for the godly counsel of discernment and apologetics ministries, including Holly’s, that I was able to make an informed decision to finally leave. How interesting that “No Time To Waste” is your site name. Having chosen such a name, you of all folks should take into consideration that more time is wasted when Christians stumble unawares into false teachings. Had I known then what I know now, I would have spent more time learning Christian Doctrine than chasing after foolishness.

    Thanks and God bless

  42. Servant2112 Says:

    a follower of Jesus Says:

    April 26, 2007 at 1:38 am
    I currently attend a church that is aligned with WLI, and in the last few years I have seen and heard doctrines that at first puzzled me, but now cause me great concern.

    For instance, using Matt 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost” as a justification for attempting to take dominion over cities, institutions, even countries etc when the verse plainly refers to people of various ethnic groups and NOT nation states.

    A Follower of Jesus,

    I understand completely where you stand. Sitting through a service where these things are taught is like trying to pick the bones out of a mouthful of fish. There’s usually more bone than meat. It’s painful. I encourage you to pray and seek the Lord’s will for you. Your observations are valid and it seems that despite their false teaching you are able to discern the truth of God’s Word, and to desire the truth in your church’s teaching. I would venture to say that your discomfort with your church’s teachings is God’s way of calling you out of there and having you find a place that teaches sound doctrine. God bless you, follower. I will pray for you.

  43. Servant2112 Says:

    Kim Skivington,

    You are word for word parroting the false doctrine of dominionists. The scriptures you quoted have been twisted by domionistst to say something different than what the bible teaches. Rightly divide the Word for yourself, and ask the Lord to reveal His truth. Read commentaries and studies from men of God who faithfully serve Him and hold to orthodox Christian doctrine. Seek counsel from godly, mature Christian people outside your church and see for yourself. Don’t just swallow everything dominionists shove down your throat. The end of times is coming, and so is the rapture. God bless you.

  44. Anonymous Says:

    I have family who are members of a Christian international church, one which i have attended, I am concerned they are being misled, can anyone give proof of his doctorate.

  45. Jenny Says:

    Hello,

    The Bible says, “You will know them by their fruit.” I believe this applies to everybody. Before judging Dr Bill Hamon and his doctrine, I think it’s helpful to maybe study who he really is, the ministry he is leading and the fruits of his life and ministry. In that way, we will find out if he is really an ordained prophet by the Lord or not.

    God bless you all.

  46. Jack Says:

    I read your post with dismay. I think you have never read any of Bill Hamon’s book, you only overhear what others say about him. Now let us face it: How come some of us claim to be right in doctrines whereas we are almost always wrong in character?
    I dare say here that it is because of the ones who are supposed to lay the foundations for righteous Christian living, namely, the apostles and prophets according to the book Ephesians 2:20, are beign hampered by such insinuation against them. and how do they differentiate the fake and authentic currency in the banks. isnt it by being accustomed to the real ones? Likewise let us be keen to discern the real and false ministers by being accustomed to the real.
    and the fact that someone is giving a strange doctrine, which maybe biblically sound does not mean he is a false prophet. We, in this ministry , have a very thin line to walk on since we know in part and prophesy in part 1Corinthians 13:9.
    the essence of this all is to let them arise and correct them in love. wont it be wonderful to find out how this guys are receptive to correction and humbled by the fact that someone had the heart to correct them when they were wrong? Let it sink now that by blogging and claiming someone to be false is just gossip, and should instead be directed to the right person if you think he is wrong. you have his website, and you can as well contact him
    Have you ever read Bill Hamon’s book “Prophets, Priciples and Pitfalls?”

  47. Jack Says:

    I think all those disagreement would be solved if we understood that every apostle has a people to whom he has been sent. You may not even understand everything that an apostle says in a meeting while another person assimilates all and runs with and is blessed thereof. someone may be at sea on this subject whereas another is flowing with the doctrine of the apostle because it is to him/her the apostle is sent.
    An example is when Peter, an apostle to the Jews went to a Gentile community, he caused confusion and had to be publicly rebuked by Paul (Galatians 2:14). Why? Because it was not His domain and these were not his supposed audience.
    I have come to this conclusion after going through all the negative and the positive innuendos posted concerning this man of God.
    Supposing you were there during the time of Elisha and you saw what he did to the folks who mocked his bald head, wouldnt you have concluded that he was from the devil himself (2 Kings 2:23,24)?
    That is why it is wrong to judge the prophets by their strange ways of expression.
    In this era of information it is important to pray God for guidance concerning the information you are getting and where you are getting it from. Maybe Bill Hamon is not sent to you and thus his ministry will always cause you to feel out of place or judgmental.

  48. Don Says:

    Hi. I appreciate that you are concerned about false doctrine in the church. I do have one disagreement with you though over the temptation of Eve to become like God if she would eat the fruit. I believe the deception was that Adam and Eve had already been created in God’s image and likeness, therefore the temptation was to act outside of faith in God in an attempt to obtain by human effort what had already been given. To act on that lie was to disbelieve God’s love and provision for them, to act out of doubt instead of faith, hence, sin. That is the definiton of Sin, according to the book of Hebrews; to attempt to obtain by works what God has already offered by grace. Eve’s best response would have been to quote the truth, that she was already like God by the fact she was created in his image. I think the problem you have with this concept is a matter of semantics. We are not saying we become like God by willing it so. We are saying that as sons and heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, we are of the same family as God and every child is made in the likeness of his or her parents. I do not find it heretical to believe so since the word is pretty clear on this. If we were trying to take what was not promised to us, then yes, that would be heresy and we would be like the one who said he would exalt his throne above the throne of God, but we are not saying that. Anyway, thanks for letting me share. Blessings.

  49. edward blaize Says:

    while i do appreciate your zeal to weed out false doctrine and false teachings in the church, and i do not agree 100% with any other man of God i have ever met, as well as not agreeing 100% with Bishop Hamon, I do NOT appreciate you lying about him and slandering him when it is obvious by the comments you have made that you have never read his books or heard any of his teachings, this is a glaring misrepresentation of what CI teaches if u believe that CI wants to bring about a physical army that will fight physical battles and take physical dominion on the earth; and that this army will be led by apostles and prophets. i have listened to his teachings in person about the apostolic and prophetic offices, and he has NEVER said what u claim he is saying. i believe you have an agenda other than the truth. you are a slanderer and back biter and u need to stop speaking of things you know absolutely nothing about. We are indeed sons of Christ, and my bible says i have dominion everywhere i set my foot. are you a fool to believe i am stupid enough to think i have physical dominion when i walk into a police station or a crowded room or public place? possobly, so just in case i will tell you i dont. i believe i have spiritual dominion because the Holy spirit is within me. My bible says that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. what he did 2000 years ago he is doing now. you accuse Bishop Hamon of controlling God. but havent you and the types of churches you attend been doing that since their inception. you wont let God out of the box you locked him up in. and i heard words of “false healings” somewhere on this sight. im sorry but i have not received a false healing. i had a ruptured disk in my back so bad that i couldnt work, i couldnt stand for more than a few moments without excruciating pain. yet when i received ministry by CI ministers, i was instantly healed and the next day i was working at the docks. that was 14 years ago and i have not so much as had a twinge in my back. you sir and mamm are on the virge, if u havent already done it, of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. and no im not saying this because you have criticized bishop Hamon, i say this becaus eyou have a form of Godliness but have denied the power thereof. you yourself said the gifts of the Holy spirit are not for today. they were only for 2 thousand years ago. well show us all where the bible says that sir. please show me, and while ur at it show me where it says your self rightrous butt is going to be raptured before the great tribulation. My bible says the opposite. in fact in mathew chapter 24 it says that tribulation will come on the earth such as never has been nor ever shall be. a line or two later it says : immediately after the tribulation of those days youll see the sign of the son of man coming in the heavens with power and great glory and his angels will gather together his elect from the 4 corners of the earth at the sound of a trump. 1st corinthians chapter 15 line 52 or 53 i believe says its at the sound of the LAST trump. you better read revelations again and see that the blowing of the 7 trumpets occurs after the seals. in fact they are indeed the 7th seal. GET THE FACTS before you slander a man of God. now in light of these bible versus i just referred to, who is the false prophet and who is teaching false doctrine, i and everone else with an honest heart can plainly see that it is you. you who deny the power of God and spread false doctrine through this sight and others like it. sorry i cant remember your names, it isnt that important to me.

  50. edward blaize Says:

    i would like to add that i no longer attend a CI church, but that it had nothing to do with with what u guys are calling false doctrines. it was personal reasons. my comments above are in defense of Bishop Hamon because what this site stated about him were misrepresentations of what CI teaches. so is it possible he has error?, i would say it is. he is human. i do not follow any man, I follow Christ. i also have not seen the weird demonic manifestations that have occurred at the vinyard churches and in other places condoned at any church service i have been to. on one occasion when a guy started growling. the preacher cast the devil out of that man right then and there, it was over quick and the devil fled and order was never lost in the meeting. so in answer to your question about where is the devil melting in the presence of believers, nowhere. but in the presence of Holy Spirit filled believers, everywhere a Holy spirit filled believer sets his foot. we have dominion remember? if you arent experiencing these things when you go into public, maybe you should question what spirit is in you, cause every where i go, demons flee the presence of the Holy Spirit. and sometimes even take their host with them.

  51. ed blaize Says:

    i believe you have erroneously represented Mr. Hammon in this case. You have not accurately portrayed what he believes or teaches. What you are doing is wrong and you MUST stop. Now having said that i will say i am sick of parts of the prosperity gospel. I believe it is being taken out of context and made the focus of too many ministries. I do believe God wants to prosper us in him, and we cannot spread the gospel if we do not prosper in him. However it doesnt mean we will all be rich monetarily. also I believe many churches focus too heavily on the prophetic and it has led to a spirit of error. especially when they are “activating” people to work in the gift of prophecy and that person hasnt had deliverance ministry and desperately needs it. I made some valid points in my last two posts which you guys did not post. i was wrong in the attitude of my post, so please forgive me, however i believe the person running the sight should definitely take heed to what i said. Now, like i said in the 1st post, show me in the bible where it says the gifts of the spirit were ONLY for 2000 years ago. My bible says God will pour out his Spirit on all mankind. and that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Mark 16 lines 15-18 states that true believers will cast out demons, deal with artfully maliscious people(serpents) and not be harmed, heal the sick and perform miracles. so are you a true believer?, im sure you are. So ask yourself why these things dont accompany your ministry. they accompany mine and most of my friends ministries. I believe it would behoove you to read a book called “Heavenly Man”, written by one of the founders of the underground church movement in China. You cannot deny the power of God in this Man’s life and ministry. The book is like a modern day book of acts. however, not the way most prosperity minded americans would think of it. I believe it puts the gifts of the spirit into a proper context and what their purpose is for, rather than speaking financial wealth into existence like so many americans do. I do admire you wanting to expose false doctrine, but some of what you say these people teach is simply not what they teach. perhaps it is because u dont really know what they teach or believe because u only heard these things from someone else, or perhaps it is because u dont really understand scripture on a level that you should and still need milk to grow to spiritual maturity. i dont know the reason, however i pray that you seek the truth in the bible and like the poster above said that you focus on spreading the Gospel rather than tearing down people who are trying, however wrong they may be. now if they were truelly teaching what you claim, i would be the 1st to denounce it, but it simply isnt the case. having said all that, i do believe many of the manifestations at some of the so called revivals are very much the devil. obviously God would never interrupt a testimony by having the testifier fall on the floor and make animal noises, this would defeat the purpose of the testimony. but all this reminds me of Paul saying that “Woman should keep their mouths shut in church”. This isnt being practiced except in some hard core pentecostal churches and maybe the omish. and all those too have doctrinal errors. and herein lies much of the problem in the church today, we have followed the ways of the world for too long, and need to heed the bibles warnings. we are reaping what we have sewn over the years. is it really any wonder that ALL churches in america fall so short. we have not followed God’s order. we have allowed deceiving spirits to come in because things are out of order. We focus on money and prosperity to cure all our problems because we are not focused on Jesus. if we truelly followed Jesus and did what he has called us to do, we will have what we need. remember many of the disciples sold all they had and gave it to the poor. thereby unloading themselves of the worldly burdens that prevented them from following Jesus. we have all been called to do this to some extent yet i know no one but a select few who actually do. God bless you and please, please check out that book. it will open your eyes to how God is moving mightily in places where the people have nothing but God.

  52. archie Says:

    I believe that God is coming back for a church without spot, wrinkle, or blemish. To say, that this “unblemished” Church or Body of Christ is connected with the Risen Saviour while we are here in the earth, is totally in context with scripture of Ephesians 6. He is the Head in Heaven,we are the Body on Earth, and We are seated together with Him in heavenly places. (Ephesians 1). We are one in Him, and joint-heirs with Christ, and we will reign with Him! He testified in Psalms 110,”Sit thou here until I make thine enemies thine footstool….Rule in the midst of thine enemies.” Perception is everything. It leads to the revelation of how one sees themselves in Christ. How do we feel about the statement of the Lord, “all power in heaven and in earth has been given unto me.”?

  53. Laurie Says:

    I have recently moved from Panama City Beach Fl which is  about 15 minutes from Bill Hammon’s CI in Santa Rosa Beach. I have spent the last 4 years attending a church called High Praise Worship Center run by Pastor’s Robert and Stacy Gay. They are directly under “Bishop” Bill Hammon and they are often invited to conduct prophetic services at CI, and vise-versa. Bill Hammon is like a father figure to Pastor Gay. I have spent my entire life as a God following Christian. My own father was a minister, and we often studied the Word together. On the surface, the ideals they all carry (Hammon and company), seem to be very Bible oriented until I really started studying what was being taught and what God had written in His Word. I prayed for wisdom and direction and truth. God led me away from their doctrine. What I have learned is that these people under Bill, truly love the Lord and are completely focused on A) Prophetic Word,  B) Prosperity  C) Demonstrative Worship. I don’t believe that they are intentionally misleading others, but that they have been misled themselves. I’ve read many of Hammon’s books and heard him speak numerous times. What I’ve learned in life is that Satan doesn’t always dress in Black or Red and carry a pitchfork. Usually his doctrine lies just to the left of the straight and narrow path of God. It’s important for Holly to raise flags on those God has led her to, and then it’s up to the people to find out if they’re truly following the Lamb or the one wearing the costume.

  54. Lola Says:

    I grew up in Bishop Hamon’s church in FL. I can say from first hand experience. CULT. I could tell you anything and everything about the Gifts of the Spirit, but I could not tell you what the simple, True Gospel was.  They did not teach the Gospel. They taught how to get what you want from God and how to manipulate people to give you money by making them feel good by giving them a vague Word of the Lord. It’s a shame.

  55. Terry Says:

    <!– @page { size: 8.5in 11in; margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } –>
    I lived near a Harmon-connected ministry for a number of years, and near the beginning of it I went to hear what the lead pastor of the group was teaching.  The puffed-up, prideful nature of the man was repellent to me.  The bigger issue, though, was his teaching which (in my opinion) mirrored witchcraft.   As a Spirit-filled person, I was both embarrassed and horrified.  I was embarrassed that these displays of ego and “power” were being offered as samples of Jesus’ life and ministry, horrified that so many people (many of them Christians) were being taken in by it.

    The ministry relied heavily on a (Harmon-discipled) “prophet” among the leadership.  They used this person to go out among other ministries and out to the public at large and amaze people, who would then be drawn to (and possibly absorbed by) their ministry.  I heard this prophet and one of their other leaders on several occasions, but the “prophecies” more closely resembled fortune telling than prophecy (in that most of the “words” began with revealing something about the person from the past to obtain trust in the “supernatural” abilities of the seer, then a directive “prophecy” that would guide future choices). 

    There were eight people (four married couples) in the hierarchy of the ministry, and at least six of these people claimed supernatural ministry.  Within a few years of setting up shop in our community, ALL of the leadership in this ministry got divorced because of adultery.  The wreckage they left in their wake didn’t stop six of them from going on and continuing in “the ministry.”
    Much of the sorrow could have been avoided if the Christians in the community had hungered more for Truth than a thrill.

  56. Alice Says:

    I once  attended one of Bill Hammonds prophecy seminars.  I was deeply disturbed in my spirit at what I was hearing.  It’s like Holly said, all the talk was about prophets and accepting the gift of prophesy and how we could then call curses upon others.  During the three days I was there, Jesus and his redeeming work on the cross was not mentioned once.  I could not sleep that night back in the hotel room. Then during the night,  a white form appeared in front of me telling me it was the “spirit of prophesy”  and if I did not accept the ” spirit of prophesy”  it would be the same as not accepting Jesus and I would be dammed in hell forever.  I struggled with this, but cried out, NO, NO, NO.  Even if I go to hell I cannot accept this.  Then mentally I flung this form against the wall.  It broke in half like and egg shell.  The inside was hollow and black.  It was then that I realized who I was dealing with. 
    Stay away from Bill Hammonds dangerous teachings.  They are white-washed sepulchures.

  57. Holly Bedard Says:

    Hi Holly,
    Our church did an exhaustive search of the NIV translation and I agree with the one respondant that you should reconsider relying on the NIV, it is not true to God’s Word, it water’s it down.

    On the other hand, I appreciate your investigation of this growing heresy in the Evangelical Church today, but it is in keeping with the prophecies regarding the growth of Laodicea that come, and it is all building to the establishisment of a large One-world religion during the Tribulation, which is practically on our doorstep. I will follow your articles in that regard but please use at the very least a parallel Bible to check you citations, and not just the NIV.

  58. Nancy B Says:

    I attended a CI church for a year and a half.  I am grounded in the Word. I was given accurate prophesies by them. What you al need to know is that they believe in a physical army being formed on the earth (not scriptural). I left because the Pastor couple regularly sinned with their mouths (gossip, criticism of others, while building up themselves) but talked to them differently in person. I, in Christian love, attempted to address this with the female Pastor. I was not told that they were not in sin. They did not deny it. They did not agree with me. They just were appalled that I spoke to them! She said she believes in a chain of authority and has people over her whose job it is to speak into her life.  She admitted that she knew I came with a “right heart”. She said we are in a spiritual army and it would be like going to your drill sergeant and telling him there was something you saw wrong in his life- you just wouldn’t do that. Sound scriptural?? NO way!! If anyone is overtaken in sin we are to approach them with the truth in love to help restore them!! They are above reproach. She bought me a bracelet and spoke of many more fine things to come. Talked about one day taking me shopping for clothes. Told me by name, people in the church that if she closed the doors they would pack up, sell their homes and follow HER!
    People: ask yourself- are the prophecies CHRIST CENTERED? I received true prophetic words (elsewhere) and it was always Christ centered even if I was in it. The ICC prophesies were always about ME.
    Jesus is not a drill sergeant!! Lion and Lamb, yes!
    Their prayer meetings are held in secret. Other meetings are by invitation only. Does this sound like the Church of Jesus?? NO!!!!!

  59. David Says:

    It always amuses me when some of these people demand that you go to speak to someone personally before you criticize them publicly.  The answer is that this is not necessary if they have preached heresy publicly.  Paul said to rebuke elders publicly.  When a person has no problem publicly speaking or writing in the name of the Lord before the entire Body of Christ they should have no problem being refuted in the same manner.  Furthermore, every single one of these people have been approached by someone in the Body of Christ regarding their errors.  They have simply ignored these appeals and condemned those who make them.  Bill Hamon and C. Peter Wager are only one branch of the heresy today.  Does anyone actually believe that Paul Crouch, Kenneth Copeland, and Joel Osteen, for example, haven’t been approached.  They have — because they, themselves, have complained about being approached.  If a false teacher were never approached about their error it would be one thing.  But Bill Hamon KNOWS what his critics have to say.  It hasn’t stopped him.  To criticize him publicly is acceptable because this is what Jesus said to do — take it before the entire church.

  60. Heather Says:

    Please stop writing comments about Prophet Bill Hamon on this website that are slanderous,accusitory,

    desparaging,misleading and rebellious along with comments about any of his colleagues. This leads to way too many people not getting miracles at the time that they need and innocent people are put through unbelief in God and his people not wanting to attend church altogether and not fullfilling their purpose that God Himself put people here for.The bible clearly is a book.

  61. Nathan Says:

    To all of you who condemn others for exposing heretics and false teachers — the Bible commands us to do so.  Furthermore, it is obvious that while you harp on love and unity that you do not realize that there is NO unity and NO love except it be in the Truth.  And finally, you clearly have no idea as to the damaged lives, shipwrecked faith, and horrible consequences these false teachings from people like Bill Hamon have worked into the lives of sincere Christian people.  Perhaps you ought to get down off of your perch and talk to some people who have lost family, friends, and even their faith, because they were taught a false picture of a false God and set upon a false course.  Read the Bible once in awhile and see what God has to say about this.  Bill Hamon and the entire C. Peter Wagner group of deluded and corrupt false teachers needs to be exposed.

  62. Terry Craig Says:

    First of all, when Jesus spoke about “not judging” He was addressing the fact that WE don’t decide Heaven or Hell for others.  I have no right to say where Bill Hamon will or will not end up.  (And one of the biggest red flags someone can raise, as far as I’m concerned, is to continually misuse the “don’t judge” idea as a means to deflect.)

    We are told to judge the FRUIT of others as a means of determining where their works are rooted.  We are never told to just passively “submit” to teachings.  Many in the Body of Christ confuse authority with domination.  Authority is of the Lord, domination is of this world.  We are called by God to weigh, chew, and discern what we are taught, but those who want to dominate see this process as rebellion.  Keep in mind that Jesus never tried to control, manipulate, or dominate others.  

    Those who seek to dominate insist upon giving themselves big titles (similar to the fancy clothing of the Pharisees that set them apart so that people would preference and honor) yet none of the apostles in the first century insisted upon being called “Apostle” along with their name (note it’s “Paul, an apostle”).  Neither are we called to walk around as “Prophet John” or “Evangelist Sue.”  Old and New Testament Scripture says that ALL believers are called to be priests and kings . . . but I’m not going to go out and buy a crown and ask others to bow.  It’s amazing to me that people can even invent new titles like “Generals of Intercession” when highest (military type) rank Scripture gives to Jesus is Captain of the Host.  If someone’s gifting is truly from the Lord, why should they insist we treat it like a badge of personal honor?

    I have seen the horrible fruit of ministries that continually cater to and honor those who set themselves up as God’s voice here on earth.  While God can use ANYbody to touch this world, we must remember that even Saul (the O.T. king) and Caiaphas (who decided they should crucify Jesus) “prophesied.”   Were these men walking with God?  Should people be seeking the “Saul anointing” or the Caiaphas teaching?  

    Jesus also said in the last days there would be FALSE signs and wonders that could deceive many.

    The proof is in the fruit–which we ARE called to “judge.”

  63. Joe Says:

    With respect to matters of doctrine and their implications, it is possible to sometimes point fingers at those who differ with us and become accusers of the brethren. Sometimes error needs to be dealt with hopefully according to Matthew 18:15-17.

    However, if we judge the ministry of others based on our own inaccurate understanding of the scriptures, then we might in the end not accomplish very much very much. If for example we are judging the doctrine of other ministries based on our understanding of the pre trib rapture “doctrine”then we are judging others based on error in our own understanding of the scriptures.  No where in scripture is the word rapture mentioned yet, we may discern the meaning of the word in scripture and we have a doctrine. 

    May I challenge the holder of this site to publish your own doctrinal statement with the scriptural context  of what you believe. Second, may I encourage you to be merciful regarding what others in the church believe and why they believe it. We who name the name of Christ will at some time stand before the Lord and give an account of what we have done on this earth and receive a reward on what is left after our works are tested with fire. Will any thing remain. By faith we should all hope so.

    See you at the Bema Seat 
    II Corinthians 5:10-11

  64. Holly Says:

    Joe,

    First, I am presently working on my personal statement of faith. I hope to post it soon. However, I do not think my personal beliefs about other matters of doctrine pertain to the issues at hand in this particular post. You need to be careful not to commit a logical fallacy in argumentation known as the “genetic fallacy.” This fallacy occurs when someone dismisses a person’s argument because of that person’s other views or behavior that are unrelated to the specific argument raised. For example, I could make an argument that people should not smoke because smoking is harmful to one’s health. If you responded that you would not listen to what I have to say about smoking until you hear what I think about dancing, then you would be committing a genetic fallacy because my views on dancing are irrelevant to the argument I raised against smoking.

    Second, I don’t believe I am being unmerciful toward false teachers. I have no authority over them so I don’t even see how it would be within my power to act unmercifully toward them. I am just pointing out where they are misusing Scripture to promote false doctrines. Do you think I shouldn’t be doing that?

    Holly

  65. Joe Says:

    Holly:  When one talks about logic keep in mind logic can not over rule scripture. I think that there are differences in the church on certain doctrines that are simply differences. Should one side declare the other to be false because of a difference.

    Citing a decision of a church council is important but it must be qualified by scripture. for example saying that Jesus was fully God and fully man. I think that we must go a bit deeper to present how Jesus reveal His divinity vs his humanity from the view of scriptures. He certainly received worship but He also according to Matthew 24:36 didn’t know the day and hour of His return. 

    I guess I would ask do you stand in your walk of faith and discern error based on the decision of church counsels, personal authority, the interpretation others have of the scriptures or on your understanding of the scriptures? This will go a certain way in determining how you discern error in the ministry and work of others. 

    On the other hand I realize that Revelation 2:2 gives a commendation for the church of Ephesus who tested those who said they were apostles. So, I hope and trust that your source of authority in deckaring error is very clearly scripturally based even if a quote from a conclusion of a church council is used. In the end mercy doesn’t hurt. Matthew 5:7

  66. Joe Says:

    Sorry for the typos and punctuation error in the above post.

  67. Willie Says:

    Seriously, It is obvious that this  translation is erroneous.  And Ron McIntyre is incorrect regarding newer translations being derived from Catholic translations.
     The newer translations such as the NASB and NKJ were translated from the KJV.  Are they any better, No they are an English Translation to Modern American Speech, and there is a lot to say about that but, just to set the record straight having read most translations.  
    At any rate we all know it is a deviation  (NAR) from the truth.  It is the spirit of the false prophet causing the falling away to come to reality.  We are facing a falling away of epoc proportion.  This younger generation of mostly-illiterate young people- isn’t even reading the well written and properly translated versions.  
    When they finally mature and begin to check out the scriptures they won’t even see it coming.  
    You all (myself included ) better get out there and preach the gospel and stop playing mystic, weird , talking, indiscernible church games and start getting serious about weightier matters of the Way the Truth and the Life.

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