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Why People Join This Movement

December 4th, 2006 | 23 Comments | Posted in Twisted Scriptures

Puzzle PieceWhen I tell Christians about the teachings of the apostolic-prophetic movement, they often ask me, “Why do people join this movement?”

Good question. When you bring the movement’s teachings together, you get a bizarre worldview that has no basis in Scripture. Yet, the thing is: Very few people in the apostolic-prophetic movement have brought all the teachings together. They’ve embraced a teaching here and another one there, but they don’t realize that all the teachings — like puzzle pieces — fit together. And the picture that emerges would, I believe, rightly concern many of them.

Many true, sincere Christians are caught up in this movement, but don’t know what they’re caught up in. That’s because many apostolic-prophetic churches don’t provide full disclosure of their teachings. In fact, they often have standard evangelical statements of faith. See, for example, the statement of beliefs for Harvest Rock Church in Pasadena, Calif.

Ché Ahn Headshot From this statement, it appears that Harvest Rock Church is a typical charismatic church. What you’re not told is that the church is enmeshed in the apostolic-prophetic movement — teaching that all Christians must submit to new apostles and prophets, who have unquestioned authority and the ability to give new teachings that aren’t found in Scripture. The pastor/“apostle,” Che´Ahn (pictured here), is a key player in the movement. Ahn is a member of C. Peter Wagner’s “International Coalition of Apostles,” (see the membership list here), and he gives sermons that promote the movement’s troublesome teachings. Ahn also brings in the movement’s “prophets,” like Todd Bentley and Kim Clement, to speak to his congregation. See the lineup of “prophets” at the church’s next conference. In fact, Harvest Rock Church even has its own in-house “prophet,” Lou Engle, who is another key player in the movement.

Yet, I’d venture to guess that many people attending Harvest Rock Church don’t even know — really know — what the apostolic-prophetic movement is. They don’t know that when they joined this church, they joined a movement that many cult researchers consider one of the most erroneous sects in the church today. They don’t know that the movement’s teachings are the same as the Latter Rain Movement of the late 1940s that was condemned as heretical by most Christians — something the movement’s leaders freely admit. Learn about the Latter Rain Movement here.

What they do know is they like the church’s focus on teachings that are often neglected by other evangelical churches, like spiritual warfare. A vacuum has been created in the Church that apostolic-prophetic churches fill. But sadly, the way spiritual warfare is taught in this movement is unbiblical. (More on this in my next post.) In brief, in this movement spiritual warfare must be conducted under the direction of the “apostles” and “prophets,” who alone have the authority and divine strategies needed to defeat demonic principalities. Yet, many people in the movement don’t make the connection between the teachings about spiritual warfare and the teachings about “apostles” and “prophets.”

Many people have been immersed in this movement — perhaps they were even raised in it. So, they can’t see how drastically its teachings depart from historic, orthodox Christianity. In their minds, the teachings are Christian.

Other Christians are so weak in their knowledge of the Bible and Christian doctrine that they can’t spot deviations from orthodox Christianity. That makes them susceptible to aberrational movements, like this one. Sadly, the evangelical church, as a whole, has so downplayed the importance of doctrine that many Christians fall into this camp.

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23 Responses to “Why People Join This Movement”

  1. David Says:

    These are the last days, The Prophetic clock is ticking and the Rapture will happen, and with this so comes satan and his children, the prophetic movement. They are asking people to really worship them, using The Lord’s name to scare people. Real believers in Our Saviour know better, these false teachers will come as we where warned in Scripture by Jesus, Paul, Peter and John to name a few.

    They, the prophetic movement will face the Lord one day Rev 20:11-15, what a fearful thing to fall in The Lord’s hands Heb 10:31. They can not because of their father satan John 8:44 see their end destuction. They appear as their father the devil does an angel of light 2 Cor11:14 yet they are in darkness and the eternal hell fire awaits them and their followers.

  2. jody Says:

    ~~~Ahn also brings in the movement’s “prophets,” like Todd Bentley~~~

    Those who choose their own way seek out those of like mind.

    Speaking of Todd Bently…

    NEW Instrumental Marinating CD

    … come and experience how soaking, basking, and bathing in the presence of the Lord can truly be the incubator for your dreams. Todd Bentley

    Join Todd on a journey into the Presence of God.

    This NEW instrumental version of the Marinating CD is the latest in Todd Bentley’s soaking series, and is sure to take you into the glory and presence of God. This brand new Intrumental CD, Marinating … Pickling in God’s Presence, is recorded for those who want to be saturated with the presence of the Holy Spirit and whose hearts long for deep intimacy with Jesus.


    Todd Bentley teaching article

    “Soaking. Part. 1”


    I have found in my walk with the Lord more power and revelation in quietness than in anything that I’ve done in prayer. I’ve come to understand that there is a place in the spirit that I believe is the highest form of prayer. It’s the silent prayer of the heart. It’s the prayer of silence – contemplation and meditation.

    It is so high that most Christians never get there. They don’t get over the demands of the mind. They fail to learn how to silence the busyness of their minds and emotions so they can enter in to true communion and fellowship with the Lord through quietness.

    In the church today we don’t understand listening prayer. We don’t understand soaking and waiting. There is an art in practicing the presence of God and exercising our spiritual senses. We need to learn how to enter into the rest of God. We don’t know what it means to be still and know that God is God. We don’t know what it means to wait on the Lord.

    These aspects of soaking were known by some of our ancient fathers such as Brother Lawrence. During my three months of learning to soak I had very real encounters with the person of Jesus Christ which I will talk about later, but I’m going to switch gears now and begin my teaching about the art and benefits of soaking.


    Let me first share a thought with you quickly about the Christian contemplative tradition.


  3. josh Says:

    i totally understand how these and other groups get carried away with this “soaking” stuff, but i think we have to be careful because not all of it is bad.

    we are to meditate on scripture day and night. doing so with music should not be a problem either, unless you are of the faith that music is bad etc.

    i have seen many “movements” come and go in my 20+ years of following Christ. It appears that calling other Christians unbelievers etc, has become one of those new movements.

    david you are in our prayers

  4. Jody Says:

    What you have to understand about this form of prayer…is that is no prayer at all.

    It is the eastern praictice of emptying your mind…in fact they specifically say…dont pray to God, do not think of His word or anything else for that matter or He wont visit you during your meditation. And they will even tell you…be careful….you might get a demon instead.

    The ancient fathers they hold so highly…werent satisfied with what was revealed in scripture…so they turned to pagan beliefs and rituals to “seek” God.

    It was not enought to have faith in things unseen….they had to have an “experiance”

    Like the Isrealites of old…..they as an evil and adulterous generation sought a sign.

    They got and are getting a “god” all right….

    But not THE only God.. our one and only Creator… The Father of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

    They got the god that everyone else who is doing it gets…to the hindus he is the hindu god of their choosing…the buddists gets a vision of their god….muslim sufi’s get a word from their god….new agers get their god….and to the apostles and prophets not to mention every other christian who takes up this practice…they want a tangable god….so he appears as the god of their own choosing….wispering sweet nothings in their ears.

    And this god/spirit is teaching them …regardless of what they call themselves….evangelical, catholic,j ewish renewalist, muslim sufi, buddist, hindu, new ager etc……all the exact same thing…..which is the doctrines of demons that we are warned of in Gods word.

    Makes them feel all warm and fuzzy with tingly sensations running through their bodies. Tells them he is love and loves them when all the while he is leading them to perdition.

    This so called god….is telling all of them that all of mankind is one in him and that they all have the truth…or at least a form of it.
    And that as soon as enough people begin seeking him in this same fashion…he will manifest and bring peace on earth.

    But….my God my Father told me about him….my God..the one and only God who created the heavens and the earth… He and His one and only Son…..call the god that is speaking to these people….. the man of sin…the son of perdition….the anti-christ.

    And that the only way anyone will be saved is through believing in Jesus Christ who alone died for our sins. And that we cant love our lives even if it means our death due to our testimony of Him and His salvation.
    He says that ….since the world hated Him first…. they will not only hate us too…but that they will also seek to kill us as they thought they killed Him.

    He says that it will get so bad…because so many people have been decieved by the false prophets and eventually the ac….that even our mothers and fathers and sons and daughters….will deliver us up to be killed for the only name by which men are saved…..Jesus Christs name.

    And they all will do it in the name of love….thinking they do this god a service.

    But Jesus also tells me not to worry about the man who can kill my flesh….but to worry about He that can kill my flesh and send my soul to hell. Where the man of sin and the false prophet will be.

    And He encourages me with His promises….He says….when you are delivered up…it will be for a testimony….give no thought to what you will say….cause He will give me a mouth that no one can gain say or resist.

    That cause the Holy Spirit will be speaking thru me….all mouths will be stopped.

    And that due to my being obediant and giving glory to the one and only God….He will raise me up the last day to spend eternity with Him forever more.

    Rev 7:14
    And I said to him, “My lord, you know.”

    So he said to me, “These are those who come out of the Great Tribulation, and have washed their robes and they made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Rev 7:15
    Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple.

    And He that sits on the throne shall dwell among them.
    Rev 7:16

    They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; nor shall the sun by any means strike them, nor any scorching heat.

    Rev 7:17
    Because the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne shepherds them, and He leads them to the springs of the waters of life. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

    AMEN 🙂

    But for those who are decieved into listening to the eastern god of the soakers/contemplatives….take heed….be not decieved…we have been warned.

    He says the scripture below was written for a warning and admonishment to all who are called by His name and would choose to do as Judah/Israel has done.

    Understand…they chose to replace His ways…..with those of the heathen.
    They took up the ways of the children of the east …
    And began to worship Him in ways that He considered an abomination…thus poluting His sancturary.

    And since they forsook Him….He forsook them.

    Isa 2:6
    For thou hast ***forsaken*** thy people the house of Jacob.

    Because they are filled with customs from the east,

    and are soothsayers like the Philistines,

    and they strike hands with the children of foreigners.

  5. Nancy Says:

    David was a man after God’s own heart and a good example for us to follow in many ways. He was a contemplative. He meditated on the word of God day and night. I do agree with Jody that focusing on nothingness, on a void, is not good. Opening yourself to who knows what, is dangerous. But meditation is, according to the scriptures, a good thing, when done in a Godly way. And quieting ourselves of the constant busy noise of our own random thoughts is incredible helpful. “On thy word will I meditate day and night.”
    Let”s not throw the baby out with the bath water.
    That being said, the problems with the Apostolic/Prophetic movement go way beyond normal doctrinal differences. Many of them deny that Jesus was the Christ before his baptism, or on the cross. Denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is the spirit of anti-Christ according to the Bible. They say he was only human, not divine, not Christ, when he was born. Therefore, Jesus came in the flesh, but not Jesus Christ. Huge deal! Many also teach that they are christs themselves.
    Anywho…nice chatting but I don’t ever do chat room stuff. So you probably won’t be hearing from me again.
    Love in Him, (the only Christ!)

  6. Jody Says:

    ~~~Many also teach that they are christs themselves.~~~

    As do the contemplative/soakers.

    They promote getting in tough with your inner divinty….no man is divine.
    They also call it your christ likeness…another group that does such a thing is the word faith teachers….they have teaching for a long time now that they are…. little gods.

    Who is it that first said….ye shall be as God?

    Gen 3:4
    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened,

    and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

    Meditating on Gods word….means just that giving thought to it…all of it…not just one word repeated over and over till your mind is silenced.

    They also use the verse bestill and know that I am God….but that too they take out of context….it means…stop striving…stop worrying and trust that God will take care of things.

    It has nothing to do with emptying you mind so that you can get a supernatural mystical visit from God. They also ignore what Jesus said on the subject of seeing God….He says…no man has seen God…but Him.

    So that in itself proves they are getting an imposter posing as God…and who is it that says he too shall be as God?

    Satan himself thats who
    2Th 2:4
    he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped;

    so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.

    Where is Gods temple today?

    1Co 3:16
    Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    1Co 3:17
    If any man destroyeth the temple of God,

    him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye.

    God forsook Judah cause they incorporated the pagan practices of the children of the east into their worship….

    He doesnt change…He is the same yesterday…today …forever.

    Whats good for the goose (Isreal/Judah) is good for the gander (christians who do the same)

  7. Jody Says:

    For a better understanding of what the soakers are promoting see

    Bryan Flynn’s one truth ministries ,it has much information on the movement and the many who are teaching it.


  8. David Says:

    Romans 14

  9. Jill Says:

    This all sounds suspiciously like the LDS beliefs. Same names, different characters.

  10. Mike Says:
  11. Mike Says:

    read what he says – essential

  12. Mike Says:

    “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
    “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”

  13. Mike Says:

    I think that to say all leaders of the prophetic movement believe that is unfair. Yes there is abuse of power – especially where ppl claim that they alone have it. I recently read a book, a fantastic book called the shifting shades of the supernatural – not once do they suggest that God speaks to only specific individuals, they encourage ppl to read their bibles until God speaks to them thru it rather than trying to force readings from prophets. They say that the revelations and powerful encouinters that they have received come not in soaking but in fasting and praying. not once do they claim power of themselves, or that it is down to them in any way. The attitude is completely based on only doing what they see the father doing, and only that under the empowerment of the spirit. that prophesy and miracles are a means, no greater than any other, to the end – God revealing himself to us, and his Glorification.

    If the above commentators knew anything about the prophetic movement other than the media exaggerated, jealousy fueled view, that takes into account only mistakes or foolishness at the edges – as accompanies any revival you care to look at in history – they would know that this is the teaching of the vast majority of the movement and is supported by theologians like John Stott and martin lloyd jones who are among the most revered in any Christian circle, and is based entirely on scripture, and even more importantly, scriopture in context

  14. Mike Says:

    I want to apologise for if the previous post sounded angry and , hypocritically, judgemental. i just want ppl to be careful not to stereotype, and in doig so, call the work of the Holy Spirit occult, because the Bible is veryclear about the consequences of rash accusations like that.
    Sorry though if I’ve offended.

  15. Herb Says:

    mike.. your heart is seen in your post. what you have to realize is this… once people sense blood, they can not contain themselves.

    under the mask of exposing error, some people actually only care about exposing people. they are not fearful of calling the work of the Spirit “occult”. their concern is to say that everyone one is bad “except me”

    there is more judgment than love, and not attempt to do anything but condemn.

    there is bad/evil/sin in all types of churches, “movements” , and ministries. but that does not make them all evil or apostate.

    false ministries should be confronted personally, and those following false ministries should be confronted personally. it is much easier to blod as I/we are doing to “correct” people.

    you post on a blog about people loving serving Christ correctly and do so without having to have your own life in order.

    “warnings” have gone out to those who “soak” in God’s presence, but a warning should also go out to those who judge a person without ever knowing them personally, or even confronting them face to face.

    maybe just maybe WE should heed the scripture about how believers handle confrontation and error.

  16. Trey Says:

    there is one sure way to tell about a person or ministry.FRUIT.
    before anyone judges (which i remind you is GODS job ) let them examine themselves . questions like :what kind of fruit is my life in Christ producing in others, what kind of fruit is my family producing, is your life in Christ causing people around you to be better Christlike people, or do they judge and backbite ,bite and devour.6 things the Lord hates,7 is an abomination. think before you speak . Let God be God . We are called to serve Him and to be servants. Let the world see your good deeds and glorify God . Obey God (that shows you love Him ) and Jesus said He will manifest Himself to you. But if people would stop soaking in the flesh and start soaking in the presence of God the true church would finally come forth and we could probably tell it from the world . If you follow Jesus to the cross you wont be worried about anyone else i promise . but before you can be raised up , you have to die to self . have you ever laid on your face before God . Try it , Soak in the presence of GOD ! May God bless all you who name the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST .

  17. dan Says:

    feed the poor, heal the sick,cast out devils, preach the gospel and knock off the back-biting. love ,Jesus
    P.S. with so much work to do, and so many hurting people, and the dominion of darkness growing, how is it that you have some much free time to critisize each other instead of building bridges,laying down your own life and what you want, and becoming the body-of-christ.
    I neither condemn or defend these men you talk about,but I have noticed that several of them are currently on a 40 day fast to expose the sin in this nation,manily the church, and I bet while your reading this your chewing on your granola bar and sipping a latte. give me a break,seriously though i love you and if you belong to Christ you have to love me. So lets get about our fathers business and stp this sensless tattle-tailing. peace

  18. Soo Nee Says:

    How attacked are you for speaking out about these doctrines of demons?
    I should add your name to my prayer list. Those who don’t recognize the very enemies of God are prone to defend these thinly veiled Hindu practices.

  19. paul Says:

    Maybe we all have a little too much time to look at “others”. Not to be mean spirited, just saying things that maybe need to be said. I know way too much people that are “watchmans”. Maybe we need to be less watchmans and more domans…that is “do”mans. It amazes me how so much people find its their duty to look around the christian circles and cirtique what they believe is wrong with others. “Balance is key Miyagi says”. Maybe a genuine encounter with God is what we all need to get our eyes in the right place. These are not harsh words…just a little nudge to alert us to the real cause of Christians. You cant give what you dont have. And you cant do what you are not inside first. Maybe a little redirecting of our energies and focus is called for. Live the Kingdom! God is love and love is power. God can communicate any way He wants to his creatures. As long as its not blaspheming God then it might be God so watch out what you condemn friends.

  20. Jose Says:

    I have been reading these blogs and many of them are very edifying. I am a born-again, Spirit filled Christian and I have a few thoughts about this meetings. I was someone who was very skeptical of the “slaying in the Spirit” experience and in the have refused to hold people when they fell. But I have been attending a few of the meetings and I have a different take on them now.
    1. On the Apostolic/prophetic movement: I consider this as a result of a great vacuum created by our mainline churches. Most of our protestant churches have become “clergy religions”. You basically attend a church service which has a good preaching of the WORD and good worship. But they do not venture out into the deeper things of God. They do not attempt to do any exploits for God. We do not see much emphasis on the “supernatural”. In summary, it is basically preaching the WORD, without its power. The Lord Jesus Christ and His power is a lot more than that.
    2. So the Apostolic/prophetic movement has gained attention. You cannot generalize these movements. There may be people at the “Christian International”, who may be emphasizing the authority of the Apostles/prophets. The scripture asks us not to despise prophecies. We are asked to test everything and to hold on to the good things. When you see thousands of people prophesying, there will be room for error. Every one them need a local church and need to be under the authority of a pastor. I do have problems in accepting that C.I is the only authority in this area. Their contribution has been enormous and I have been greatly blessed by many of their ministries.
    3. Speaking of “Todd Bentley”, I consider that the man is genuine. The Lord has been using him. So many homosexuals have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior during his recent “Lakeland revival”. People from Hollywood have testified of the impact of his ministry. Thousands have testified of the miraculous healing power of Jesus which was manifested during the meetings. I know of the pastors of large congregations who were at those meetings. The impact has been tangible. I did have my own problems in accepting someone who has tattoos all over his body and has strange mannerisms as a genuine man of God. But I am no one to judge. The impact of his meetings speaks out for themselves. If the Lord has chosen the foolish things of this world to silence the wise and the learned, who am I to question? I am not suggesting that Todd Bentley is foolish. But he appears like that to a lot of people. But the Lord who judges the hearts knows who we really are. He has never emphasized that everyone should follow him and join his organization. He is careful to to give glory to God constantly. I consider him as a genuine man of God who has become a mighty instrument in the hands of our great God.

    I have a lot more to say on this topic. I will continue to write if it is of help and edification to someone.

    Praise God!

  21. Sam Says:


    Interesting stuff here and honestly I wasn’t aware of this in the broader apostolic/prophetic circles. I just want to say though that this is not a true representation of some apostolic/prophetic ministries. I can assure you that NCMI (New Covenant Ministries International) has nothing to do with this belief in that latter rain stuff or any of this heresy and elitism – they just see a role for apostles and prophets in the church.

    The leaders actively discourage any notion of hierarchy, and further, they actively encourage local church governance through local elders/pastors. The Bible is the central source and final word on all doctrine, and prophesy must be subordinate to Scripture. I just thought it might be help to clarify that we can’t lump all churches that believe in apostles and prophets into the same pigeonhole.


  22. Mark Says:

    I was a NCMI member, and can tell you that what you said is just not true. It might be true for the NCMI church that you attend but not for all.
    The church that I attended, NCF pmb RSA was controlling over every aspect of your life. They wanted to control your relationships and financial. They even had a lawyer who is an elder that they wanted everyone represented by in secular court.

  23. Justin Rice Says:

    Amber and I believe this article stands on ignorance.

    Spiritual maturity bring wisdom through the trials of life. I’ve known some who attend AP churches and watch them be released to grow even further in their walk away from the petty sins their old fellowship held them to a purposeful life (not a Rick way either). Growth is where God grows a fellowship.

    Many take interests of other saint’s gifts almost to a point of envy. Paul addressed this in his letter to Corinth believers. If you don not have evidence of this calling then tinker not with it’s wisdom. A depth of understanding is required after a longer walk than most in the church with our Lord Jesus.

    Spiritual warfare has increased on Satan’s side as that creature knows well a judgement day is laid up for eternity in hell. Scrambling those minions to do deception and preventing lost lambs from finding their shepherd is their goal.

    Isaiah states sanctified fasting is releasing their bondage.

    The strategy is simple.
    Mapping is simply identifying and praying before the Lord an intercession by believers for the lost. The Love component is great in these acts.

    One characteristic of Christ in Spiritual Warfare was confrontation by authority. We submit to His authority in a manner as petition to our Lord to interceed. Tactics vary but the simple approach is ID it and knock it out with prayer. but this needs mapping and a bit of time for discovery.

    Satan knows ministers today have matured by spirit to knock the evil out of the park to so say.

    Many “seekers” have testified after being received by our Lord and sanctified, that they had sleep dilemmas and abrupt and rather rude awakening at 12 and 3 am. Lo and behold the wicked covens exercise a pointed release into their territory at this time on the week days.

    Confessions have been made to reveal their strategy and so Christ’s church responds to the cries of those seeking him out but stuck in the muck of curse.

    Outside the AP efforts to pointed ID and release intercession prayer, corporate church makes broad strokes in their petitions. Together we succeed 100% with some more time required than others. I

    t has also been a constent that those false brethren swinging wildly biblical doctrine to denounce these ministries simply want the saints to counter prayer against themselves and excommunication is the fruit.

    Rest assured if a loved one seems way out of reach from Christ, and all that corporate church does is say get better, AP ministers commission by Christ’s spirit will take that area strong holds down which create the stumbling blocks of many to receive Christ clearly and openly.

    Have faith and take care of what type of Good Berean you wish to be. Even they recognized that Paul’s heavy sayings required a diligent heart of something they may have missed. And they were not ignorant to the Scripture.

    Since Satan and minions rule this website phenomenon WWW worldwide web, I would be surprised if this reply enters the page for others to read. And if it does, copy and paste for others to encourage them.

    Note: WWW is six Vs, Hebrew Letter ‘V’ Vav numberic is # 6.

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